Devuan 3.1 Released - Debian Fork Now Offers Runit Plus Sysvinit, OpenRC

[tuxd3v]

Really..?
I believe you need to calm down a bit..

On the moment that you are trying to win an argument, stalking a victim.. you will only loose, also education is something very precious to a lot of people, and you should Educate Yourself..
Sometimes in life there are people that by one reason or another cannot have Education provided by their parents, but still, if you don't had it, you need to work your brain harder to get it.. its your duty..

Seriously,
I am sorry, but after so many nonsense, I think that you should calm down yourself.
One thing is discussing something, other thing is insulting others because you think differently..

[Terrablit]

On the moment that you are trying to win an argument, stalking a victim..

Nobody's stalking anyone. It's just simple to note when the same people roll by doing the same thing every single time. And they get emboldened to do iut more when no one stands up to them.

Really..?
I believe you need to calm down a bit..

On the moment that you are trying to win an argument, stalking a victim.. you will only loose, also education is something very precious to a lot of people, and you should Educate Yourself..
Sometimes in life there are people that by one reason or another cannot have Education provided by their parents, but still, if you don't had it, you need to work your brain harder to get it.. its your duty..

Seriously,
I am sorry, but after so many nonsense, I think that you should calm down yourself.
One thing is discussing something, other thing is insulting others because you think differently..

I'm just not leaving the facade of courtesy uncontested. These people - the collective of people who regularly promote FUD against Red Hat and systemd, which are high profile but unimportant targets - harass distro maintainers, devs, members of committee groups. There's been hateful comments and death threats going back years now. Even if they're not doing the harassing themselves, they're inciting it among the less stable. All this stupid FUD-spreading exacerbates the problem.

We're literally allowing people to sow hatred against members of the community with zero fucking proof that it's deserved. One group doesn't like another's contribution and that others like that contribution, so they hop on forums on say hateful things about them and try to poison the narrative by lying about what's taken place. It's mental illness fixation and it's not a victimless crime. I've seen people harassed by people with schizoaffective disorder for years. It's not a facts thing, it's an obsession thing. Women complain about this type of stuff all the time from our less savory compatriots and it just gets ignored as long as the audience is not directly affected.

Similarly, they base arguments on unfounded allegations of conspiracy and behind the scenes "tricks" when everything has been open since the very beginning. And everyone but them gets why history went the way it did. Conspiracies are a mental health crisis. It's different from a healthy distrust of authority and capitalism. The idea that one of the prime contributors to open source software over the several decades is secretly trying to ruin it is absurd and serves no purpose.

On the moment that you are trying to win an argument, stalking a victim.. you will only loose, also education is something very precious to a lot of people, and you should Educate Yourself..
Sometimes in life there are people that by one reason or another cannot have Education provided by their parents, but still, if you don't had it, you need to work your brain harder to get it.. its your duty..

Seriously,
I am sorry, but after so many nonsense, I think that you should calm down yourself.
One thing is discussing something, other thing is insulting others because you think differently..

See, you spout a lot of pretentious bullshit, but then do the exact thing you're accusing me of - insulting another person because they think differently. And make similar unfounded claims about my education level. I've not focused on the background of danielsan, despite the name indicating either a connection to Karate Kid or a Japan fascination. Because who they are or where they come from doesn't matter. All I've insulted is their unhinged, unhealthy, and unfounded behavior the sows discord in the community. And I did it by openly sowing more discord. I'm okay with being hated by this because I know I have self-control to not take this into other threads. They've chosen to disengage, and I respected that. You, on the other hand, make a pretense of taking the higher road while backstabbing in the dark. Honestly, I think you're less concerned about my behavior than my position.

I'm not insulting them because they have a different opinion. Yes, I think that opinion is stupid and unfounded. And I've refuted it multiple times already despite the fact that it clearly won't sink in. What I'm insulting them over is groundless conspiracy-mongering, hateful pot-stirring and the same deceitful tactics they accuse others of. If a person insists on throwing mud, they should be fully prepared to get dirty. I don't have enough investment in this to bother shutting it down all the time, but when I do, I'm not kind. Because bullies don't back down when dealing with kind people. And if the false narrative isn't challenged, eventually people will start to believe it to disastrous consequences. That's what we saw on Jan 6.

Regarding, systemd, I get irritated with it, too. Like I hate how they did their DNS rotation stuff against common practice. And I hate how frequently valid criticism gets dismissed over technicalities. Call out technical things all you like. There's several articles with good points. More with bad, but that doesn't invalidate the good. I love seeing an honest, deserved high-level criticism to the meta-project. I bookmark it and enjoy it over a cup of tea because it's so rare. Honest, straightforward criticism is something that all projects need. And if we're not honest in our criticism, they'll stop paying attention to the critique.

But blaming Red Hat for orchestrating a shadowy conspiracy, and claiming Debian chose the init policy it did because of politics and backdoor deals instead of open and painfully tedious voting is wrong. It's a bad faith attack from the very beginning when Danielsan insinuated Debian is driven by Red Hat. That kind of argument is wrong and hateful no matter how nicely it's put. And it shouldn't be accepted by anyone.

But here you come in, pretending to be enlightened, and yet saying nothing about how the person I'm telling off literally just accused one of the major distros - the most obnoxiously democratic distro of all - of being under corporate control. Instead you accuse me of being uneducated and stalking based on my mean words. I don't know what kind of education level you have, but I don't think much of your critical thinking nor your conflict resolution skills. That's still not indicative of education, since those skills usually aren't the focus in classes. Guessing at intelligence or education doesn't really work, because people have logical blind spots.

If you're going to play the Fisher-Price Peacemaker, try counting all the shots fired before you start throwing blame around. And try having enough basic integrity to not take sides when standing up for proper behavior and decorum. It makes attempts at pretending to be reasonable and fair a lot more convincing. I'd say that's your duty.

[tuxd3v]

@Terrablit
Yes you were stalking someone with a different point of view, a person with decades on the linux field... a lot of experience too..
This topic was about Devuan, about all the reasons that Devuan Community took a different path.

You are entitled to your opinion, like any other person,
Don't get me wrong, I believe discussions should exist about any subject that is technology related here,
But you should moderate the way you speak to other people

There are people with 20+ years discussing things here, and usually people working around Unix or Unix Like systems, have their grounds very well based.
They work in the field, have tons of experience..

Now there are a younger generation that doesn't absorb the Unix Culture( because all they knew was MS Windows.. and maybe because they are too lazy to absorb it ),
But they want to come to the Unix Like World, and its not that Seniors here are rejecting them, the point is they should do their homework first.
Now the problem is that this homework was not made, and you have a break situation, between Philosophies..

Its not that Seniors are rejecting new ways of doing things, the problem is that Seniors want new ways of doing things, but maintain its traditional Unix Values..
Systemd is one of those break points..

Another problem, is RedHat, and the Gnome project in Debian.. the Gnome project thinks that Debian means Gnome, while Debian is much, much more than Gnome( or was in the past..), this two subjects, RedHat, and Gnome, and destroying Debian..

For instance I never understood why the hell RedHat has a say in Debian, why the hell gnome has a say in Debian, why are those 2 projects driving Debian in a different direction?

Debian was very well known for its Server stability, top notch( in the past ), and of course they compete with RedHat in a zillions of places around the Globe.
So Debian even tough is a Community driven OS, it is indeed a RedHat competitor, in the server space... having RedHat and Gnome( which is sponsored by RedHat ), having a Say in Debian is destroying Debian Credibility..

Another point is, that Debian actual Leadership wants Debian to become a more Desktop Oriented OS, and that will means less Oriented Server Based OS, Debian was never well known for its Desktop Role, but for its Server Stability!

Of course Gnome and RedHat are comfortably well with Debian becoming a mere Desktop distribution why?
Its obvious why, RedHat works in the server space, it doesn't want competition in that market,
Gnome is a Desktop Oriented project, it also doesn't want Debian Server focused, so its Ideal for them too..

So when you see people complaining that RedHat is killing Debian, directly or indirectly, they know what they are talking about

But the Subject here is Devuan, after its beak point, or after the fork happens, and a lot of your comments doesn't have nothing to say about it, in a thread that was Devuan Subject based..

I, personally, am in Favour of Diversity, and Independence, Stability, and Unix Values are also Sacred to me,
So in my opinion Devuan is doing Just Great.
Of course don't expect that Devuan separate from the Debian core role, as far as I know, they have 500 plus forked packages till now, and of course that value will grow with time.. but they are following the Traditional Values that made Debian so great in the past..so we shouldn't expect radical changes to the Devuan Core..

[Danielsan]

Debian was very well known for its Server stability, top notch( in the past ), and of course they compete with RedHat in a zillions of places around the Globe.

From my point of view Debian has been eating by Canonical, look at the progression from 2013 to 2017 (I took it from a very old post of mine):

2017
Ubuntu 38.5%
Debian 30.9%

2016
Ubuntu 34.7%
Debian 31.9%

2015
Debian 32.5%
Ubuntu 30.5%

2014
Debian 32.1%
Ubuntu 23.9%

2013
Debian 32.7%
Ubuntu 26.7%

While height years ago speaking about Ubuntu as server it was just a joke:

2008
CentOS 31.9%
Debian 27.2%
Red Hat 15.7%
Ubuntu 11.3%

Canonical filled the gap to have a commercial entity behind Debian but with an arguable path, anyway both Canonical & Red Hat want have control, directly or indirectly, over Debian, even Gugl put a lot of pressure on Debian. Debian besides being the backbone of Ubuntu still holds a relevant space on Linux and corporations want have control over it, they cannot do it directly as for instance the Linux Kernel, hence all the other methods are valid.

Honestly it is sad, Debian should be outside this things, but there are a lot companies that are still using Debian, then this will continue to happen.

I, personally, am in Favour of Diversity, and Independence, Stability, and Unix Values are also Sacred to me,

Unix was created with an academic approach that's why has a strong philosophy approach, but a software like systemd was built with a corporate approach, that is the problem, and the result is a dirty, bloated, complicated software that is easy to use on the surface but complicated behind the hood; it just moved the complexity where the "Unix philosophy" says it shouldn't be at all. Personally I dislike totally the corporate approach in any field.

Linux is my passion not my job hence I'd like to preserve the philosophical approach nurturing diversity and inclusivity.

[tuxd3v]

Danielsan ,
Yeah Ubuntu has also being trying to create is own market too, if possible carving some market from RedHat great for them,
But I believe its more difficult to carve something from RedHat than from others, like Debian, for instance..

Ubuntu and Debian, follow the same road, so the success of Debian also improves Ubuntu, and vice-versa, since Ubuntu is a contributor to Debian..
But yeah, Ubuntu also want some control over Debian, what I don't understand is RedHat/Gnome controlling Debian..

[Danielsan]

... what I don't understand is RedHat/Gnome controlling Debian..

I would not say they want control Debian, but they are the first investor in the open source space and they want lead it, also when they put money or workforce they want all the other involved, no matter what.

But if you look at the Canonical failure's collection eventually you realized that at RH are well aware that without the whole community contribution you don't go that far.

Bottom line, is basically a question of "return of investment"...

[Terrablit]

@Terrablit
Yes you were stalking someone with a different point of view, a person with decades on the linux field... a lot of experience too..
This topic was about Devuan, about all the reasons that Devuan Community took a different path.

Okay, boomer. You do realize that when you sign up in the forum, you put in an email address, right? And as part of that, when somebody posts a new message on a topic, you get an email. What's more, when someone quotes or addresses you first thing in a message, you see that they're responding to you in that notification. The normal, not raised on a diet of 8-track tapes thing to do is to click that link and then read and/or respond to that message. Even more mystifying, people sign up with user names, so you can see it's the same person if they have the same name, even if you know nothing else about them. It's not stalking or witchcraft to sign up for forum notifications, you absolute unit.

This has been the way that web forums have worked for 2 decades or so. Both they and I did that. It's not stalking just because you don't understand it, you ridiculously pompous donut. If you're going to say things about someone, they shouldn't be trivially disprovable for anyone who's used a computer since the year 1992. Take your bullshit ad hominems and fuck off back to clown town.

Blah blah blah the same Red Hat/Gnome/systemd/Debian conspiracy category of nonsense as Danielsan that's not worth reading or even quoting

Ah, so, as I pointed out, your problem wasn't what he or I said, since both things were rude and inflammatory. You just agree with them and identified with them because of that, so you took it personally. You disagreed with the content - not the presentation.

Talking with a living, breathing model of the Dunning-Kruger effect clearly isn't going to change anything. Glad you found a friend to share stupid ideas with and ignore the facts. Also, it's entertaining to watch you lecture on things you don't really know that much about while asssuming that others who disagree are less informed than you simply because they refuse to accept conspiracy theories as facts.

They should probably make a dating app or something for ignorant FOSSils like you to get together and mouthbreathe back and forth. But, then again, the way to know someone's an ignorant FOSSil is to wait a few seconds and they'll tell you, so I guess it's not really needed. Have fun with your fellow qultist. I'll be off to a less contaminated region of the internet, since this has now become ever more wasteful of my time.

[Danielsan]

...

Cut it out, you have to moderate yourself, thanks.

[rogerx]

Although my Devuan install apparently went flawless, even allowing to install Lilo or Grub to specific partition instead of the entire disk MBR (/dev/sda1, /dev/sda2, ...), I find it extremely troublesome all my searches for Devuan unique post-install information immediately results in Google only providing Debian unique post-install information. (eg. nVIDEA proprietary driver install)

So, I'm more seriously looking at migrating from Gentoo to Void Linux, as Void Linux seems to be all-in to be SystemD free and not apparently linked behind the scenes to any other SystemD distribution.

So sick of the SystemD infestation and developers not disclosing the removal of 32bit non-SSE2 CPU support, while being strangled by elogind/eudev.

What's next promoting edumacting chimpanzees to code the Linux kernel? Oh wait, we already are with the exodus of M$ employees immigrating to Linux! ... any people wonder where SystemD came from ...

[aht0]

So, I'm more seriously looking at migrating from Gentoo to Void Linux, as Void Linux seems to be all-in to be SystemD free and not apparently linked behind the scenes to any other SystemD distribution.

So sick of the SystemD infestation and developers not disclosing the removal of 32bit non-SSE2 CPU support, while being strangled by elogind/eudev.

What's next promoting edumacting chimpanzees to code the Linux kernel? Oh wait, we already are with the exodus of M$ employees immigrating to Linux! ... any people wonder where SystemD came from ...

With Void Linux, you might run into issues caused by not using glibc (it's musl-based). Another systemd-less distro you could try is PCLinuxOS.