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Devuan 3.0 Released For Debian 10 Without Systemd

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  • #31
    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    Do you actually read this forum? I've seen more hate against system-free people (notably Devuan, but also Gentoo and any project that supports alternative init, even if systemd is also supported (Gentoo)) than against systemd (anti-systemd hate only dominates in non-systemd projects forums).
    That's only because Devuanites went out of their way to complain about systemd on even completely unrelated threads and people got sick of it.

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    • #32
      systemd is not generally better than init scripts for end users, except maybe for shorter boot time, but it is a lot better for the distribution maintainers, who find it easier than init scripts for their work.

      On the one hand, hate towards systemd-free users is not really hate, it's pity for those lovable little animals that haven't fully developed yet, but they are undoubtely free to use whatever they like, and efforts like Devuan are worth our respect for doing the right thing (as opposite to complaining about systemd on some forum or mailing list): they do the walk of life, they're just growing up.

      On the other hand, systemd-free users seem to hate systemd users, because they pretend systemd steals freedom somehow, but they are really just behaving as rebel teenagers: they wish to change the world and they believe they'll manage to, just with their own scripting powers. That's good. We must let them try, they have the right to try and they need to eventually fail, because no teenager will ever follow parents advice just because it comes from parents.

      Maybe a few of them will actually manage to create a better world, while most of them will only learn from their mistakes they were wrong after all. Letting them try, while seeing they're are failing for sure and giving advice for that matter, is maternal love, not hate.

      Trying to do something just because you believe it is good against parents advice and against the whole world is fighting the right battles, not hate.

      Our task as parents is just sitting by the river long enough and we'll see the body of your enemy float by... hey wait, enemy? Weren't they like our children we love? Well yes, but I'm sure you've understood what I mean.





      lucrus
      Senior Member
      Last edited by lucrus; 03 June 2020, 05:39 PM.

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      • #33
        You can set up a basic router, complete with firewall with some simple systemd config files. Takes about 5-8 lines of very easy-to-understand config file commands to set up NAT and routing. Firewall-cmd, the interface for firewalld, sets up port-forwarding and is far easier than iptables. Wireless is still a bitch but that's mainly because of Linux WiFi drivers and controllers not doing AP functions in a standardized way due to the controller manufacturers not wanting you using them in that mode with open source drivers (it's a better story on closed-source drivers and/or blobby drivers on Linux). If you can at least get your AP mode set up, it's pretty easy to add that to networkd like any other network interface. You'd only really need a shell to forward additional firewall ports.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by kpedersen View Post

          It is still fairly monolithic. Not one of those modules can truly function on its own and systemd is fairly broken without all of its modules.

          This (admittedly annoying) diagram demonstrates this idea.

          http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux...ol_systemd.htm

          That said, this isn't just systemd, I find open-source software is often a victim of a modular architecture that really just ends up being monolithic anyway.
          • dbus is not systemd
          • libpam is not systemd
          • libaudit is not systemd
          • tcpwrapper is not systemd
          • libcrypt is not systemd
          • libcap is not systemd
          • libnotify is not systemd

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Giovanni Fabbro View Post

            You're already using the biggest monolithic piece of software available: the Linux kernel.
            I read somewhere that the NT Kernel in win10 is somewhere around half a terabyte as source.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Giovanni Fabbro View Post

              You're already using the biggest monolithic piece of software available: the Linux kernel.
              I'm afraid that obvious analogy is lost on the anti-systemd people who still peddle the myth of monolith and also their hypocrisy of complaining about the systemd devs when Torvalds is in charge of the kernel - they should hate him too if they were consistent. But when they have no arguments, they resort to these things.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lucrus View Post
                systemd is not generally better than init scripts for end users, except maybe for shorter boot time, but it is a lot better for the distribution maintainers, who find it easier than init scripts for their work.

                On the one hand, hate towards systemd-free users is not really hate, it's pity for those lovable little animals that haven't fully developed yet, but they are undoubtely free to use whatever they like, and efforts like Devuan are worth our respect for doing the right thing (as opposite to complaining about systemd on some forum or mailing list): they do the walk of life, they're just growing up.

                On the other hand, systemd-free users seem to hate systemd users, because they pretend systemd steals freedom somehow, but they are really just behaving as rebel teenagers: they wish to change the world and they believe they'll manage to, just with their own scripting powers. That's good. We must let them try, they have the right to try and they need to eventually fail, because no teenager will ever follow parents advice just because it comes from parents.

                Maybe a few of them will actually manage to create a better world, while most of them will only learn from their mistakes they were wrong after all. Letting them try, while seeing they're are failing for sure and giving advice for that matter, is maternal love, not hate.

                Trying to do something just because you believe it is good against parents advice and against the whole world is fighting the right battles, not hate.

                Our task as parents is just sitting by the river long enough and we'll see the body of your enemy float by... hey wait, enemy? Weren't they like our children we love? Well yes, but I'm sure you've understood what I mean.




                Gee thanks the Gods there are people who are so omniscient, so we don't have to worry about ever, ever thinking or learning again: You guys can provide for all humanity! Lo to our Linux daddies and mommies (as you so call yourself!)

                I'll remember to send you a flower for next year's mommy's day and proceed to remove any traces of non systemd systems from my computers. I was all wrong to like them and obviously I didn't knew what I was feeling really when I though I enjoyed it.

                PS: May I call you "my mommy?"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 8r34k0u7_57y13 View Post

                  I read somewhere that the NT Kernel in win10 is somewhere around half a terabyte as source.
                  It's not a monolithic kernel. Also, I'd like to see the NDA the guy signed that proclaimed that.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bigon View Post
                    • dbus is not systemd
                    • libpam is not systemd
                    • libaudit is not systemd
                    • tcpwrapper is not systemd
                    • libcrypt is not systemd
                    • libcap is not systemd
                    • libnotify is not systemd
                    Also there are systemd implementations that don't have resolved, swapd, and you can easily disable firewalld and networkd.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Maybe a few of them will actually manage to create a better world, while most of them will only learn from their mistakes they were wrong after all. Letting them try, while seeing they're are failing for sure and giving advice for that matter, is maternal love, not hate.
                      Ya, the modern education system seems to forget that '1984' was a warning, not an instruction manual...

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