Fedora 30 Will Get Bash 5.0 But Yum's Death Sentence Postponed To F31

[Weasel]

Using them?

YOU said: What stops you from using them?

Pollute the landscape?

Yes that's exactly what I said.

I pointed out that there are systemd free distribution and that should consider using them, as opposed to ranting in some random forum.

Which is completely off the point since it has nothing to do with what I said.

Let's say you see a company dump toxic waste in water. Do you think proposing a solution to move to a different country is in any way reasonable for the claim "this company is polluting the water" or somehow changes such claim at all? If you can't see the nonsense in your "proposed solution" then it's a really lost cause at this point.

Victim? Push them.
Wow.

I meant Red Hat obviously, not you.

A. This is the last time I waste time reading any post by you the contains personal insults. As noted above, I'm not your friend.
B. Don't like PA tied software? Fork them.
The same why LibreOffice, Xorg and many others did.
If others share your view, RH polluted code will surely disappear.

How about no? Does forking them entail zero effort? Why should I sit idly by, quietly, and not decry this shitty company when it makes me have to do extra effort because of what it did?

I don't care if you don't read, you're obviously not even adept at basic logic to begin with, and here's perfect proof of that.

Again, you seem to think that wishing the RH will simply die will somehow help you.

It does help me, relieves my inner feelings to this piece of shit company.

I concede to your argument. Donating billion dollar's worth of free code is far worse than trying to put an entire community of business by suing them into oblivion.
If you truly believe this, I believe there's zero reason to continue this discussion.

Yeah, lost cause. You're definitely not going to get it.

You are aware your hatred for Microsoft on an unrelated context is a logical fallacy right? We're talking about one context here, and I'm comparing Microsoft with Red Hat in this context only, pushing their stupid dependencies and polluting / locking the landscape. Nowhere was anything about patents stated, except in your brain.

I know you're not going to read it, but here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well (the "target" is Microsoft here, in your "logic")

[gilboa]

Weasel,

Please refrain from using rude language when addressing me.
I am not your friend, nor did I address you in a rude manner.

Who said anything about me using them? I said that they pollute the landscape. Boggles my mind people only read what they WANT to read and argue with irrelevant points.

Using them?
Pollute the landscape?
I pointed out that there are systemd free distribution and that should consider using them, as opposed to ranting in some random forum.

I don't care about Fedora, but Ubuntu was also a victim of Red Hat here.

That's fine, don't fucking push them though.

Victim? Push them.
Wow.

You are delusional. You just proved the opposite. The fact is that apps rely on PulseAudio, so you can't break it or change it.

A. This is the last time I waste time reading any post by you the contains personal insults. As noted above, I'm not your friend.
B. Don't like PA tied software? Fork them.
The same why LibreOffice, Xorg and many others did.
If others share your view, RH polluted code will surely disappear.

Why the fuck would I waste my time helping an alternative that will go nowhere because of Red Hat? I'm not retarded like RH fanboys. RH already ruined the landscape and continue to do so. There's nothing you can do, as an individual, to change that. Period.

Thankful Linus and many others didn't share your point of view. Else we'd be locked in MS-dominated world.
Again, you seem to think that wishing the RH will simply die will somehow help you.

And that was exactly my point, but you and hreindl only read what you want. They exert their influence just like Microsoft. I don't give a shit about the patents because there's a whole lot more evil Microsoft did than just suing for patents.

I concede to your argument. Donating billion dollar's worth of free code is far worse than trying to put an entire community of business by suing them into oblivion.
If you truly believe this, I believe there's zero reason to continue this discussion.

- Gilboa

[Weasel]

There are distribution still using OpenRC and even normal sysv init.
What stops you from using them? Has RH forced *you* to use systemd? Has RH lawyers contacted your favorite distribution and threatened to sue them if they keep sysv?

Who said anything about me using them? I said that they pollute the landscape. Boggles my mind people only read what they WANT to read and argue with irrelevant points.

So, they tried to solve a an urgent problem that by your own testiment was poorly covered (neither alsa nor OSS came close to to having a usable out-of-box audio sub-system and I still have a shit-load-of-alsa-scripts and configurations to back it up).
It was neither pushed down your throat, nor was it hastily adopted by most distribution.

Yes, it was immediately adopted by Fedora, but this is what Fedora is for! (And at least in my case, and I'm talking about >100 machines running Fedora, PA was never as buggy as you describe)

I don't care about Fedora, but Ubuntu was also a victim of Red Hat here.

And even if PA was unstable when it was released, so?
Should I give you a list of OSS projects that were buggy at first? Linux 0.x and 1.x, Linux 2.6, RedHat 5.x, Fedora Core 1, KDE 1, KDE 4, GNOME 3, etc, etc.

That's fine, don't fucking push them though.

Beyond that, building an alternative to PA is pissing against the wind? Good. Nothing wrong with it!
This is open source. You cannot __kill__ an alternative as long as there's a community around it that's passionate enough to fight for what they believe.
Qt (vs GTK), KDE (vs GNOME), LibreOffice (vs OpenOffice and MSOffice), Xorg (vs XFree86) and even the Linux kernel itself (vs world) are a living testament for this fact.

You are delusional. You just proved the opposite. The fact is that apps rely on PulseAudio, so you can't break it or change it.

You failed to explain why PA prevents a better PA alternative (feel free to name one) from happening.
What exactly prevents PW from using Alsa directly?

See above.

So you compare a company that tried to kill the OSS community by using the patent infringement doomsday weapon (let alone highly shady business practices) to a company that literally spends billion of dollars on giving you free code just because you hate systemd and PA.
Amazing.

BTW, Have you considered helping one of the "alternatives" as opposed to wasting your time trash talking RH in Phoronix forum?

EDIT: I just noticed you didn't mention **one** superior technology that was killed by RH. I assume you have none?

Why the fuck would I waste my time helping an alternative that will go nowhere because of Red Hat? I'm not retarded like RH fanboys. RH already ruined the landscape and continue to do so. There's nothing you can do, as an individual, to change that. Period.

And that was exactly my point, but you and hreindl only read what you want. They exert their influence just like Microsoft. I don't give a shit about the patents because there's a whole lot more evil Microsoft did than just suing for patents.

[gilboa]

For starters, all other init systems than systemd.

There are distribution still using OpenRC and even normal sysv init.
What stops you from using them? Has RH forced *you* to use systemd? Has RH lawyers contacted your favorite distribution and threatened to sue them if they keep sysv?

Then you have PulseAudio, which technically had no alternative at the time but it got pushed so hard when it was extremely buggy that now almost everything depends on it.

So, they tried to solve a an urgent problem that by your own testiment was poorly covered (neither alsa nor OSS came close to to having a usable out-of-box audio sub-system and I still have a shit-load-of-alsa-scripts and configurations to back it up).
It was neither pushed down your throat, nor was it hastily adopted by most distribution.

Yes, it was immediately adopted by Fedora, but this is what Fedora is for! (And at least in my case, and I'm talking about >100 machines running Fedora, PA was never as buggy as you describe)

And even if PA was unstable when it was released, so?
Should I give you a list of OSS projects that were buggy at first? Linux 0.x and 1.x, Linux 2.6, RedHat 5.x, Fedora Core 1, KDE 1, KDE 4, GNOME 3, etc, etc.

Nobody could come up with any alternatives, it's like pissing against the wind, you just don't do it when the wind pushes so hard. Of course, it's decent now, but it wasn't at the beginning.

This has to be poorest rant I read in years.
Yeah, they are solving my problem for free, spent God-knows-how-many man-hours to do so, but I still plan to cry foul about it! Because... Because... something.
Come on!

Beyond that, building an alternative to PA is pissing against the wind? Good. Nothing wrong with it!
This is open source. You cannot __kill__ an alternative as long as there's a community around it that's passionate enough to fight for what they believe.
Qt (vs GTK), KDE (vs GNOME), LibreOffice (vs OpenOffice and MSOffice), Xorg (vs XFree86) and even the Linux kernel itself (vs world) are a living testament for this fact.

Problem is, the vast majority of Linux __developers__ and __users__ either have no real issue with systemd and PA or actually like it, hence alternatives are failing to grab mindshare and developershare.

You see even PipeWire tries to make compatible interface to pulse, you simply can't have an alternative otherwise. So it killed off any alternative interfaces, and let me tell you, pulse's interface is garbage, and now we're stuck with it.

You failed to explain why PA prevents a better PA alternative (feel free to name one) from happening.
What exactly prevents PW from using Alsa directly?

Reminds me of Microsoft. Oh wait, I've said that so many times now, but MS get a lot of flak, while RH get praise. Typical open source community.

So you compare a company that tried to kill the OSS community by using the patent infringement doomsday weapon (let alone highly shady business practices) to a company that literally spends billion of dollars on giving you free code just because you hate systemd and PA.
Amazing.

BTW, Have you considered helping one of the "alternatives" as opposed to wasting your time trash talking RH in Phoronix forum?

EDIT: I just noticed you didn't mention **one** superior technology that was killed by RH. I assume you have none?

- Gilboa

[Panix]

Funny. Normally, Cinnamon gets a lot of praise because of its stability and reliability, but in this thread, people complain that it's buggy :/

Well, a few posters at the start of the thread are enthusiastic about using some obscure QT OS (spin?), that is based in China (which apparently spied on users), which hardly anyone uses. Good luck with that. Go figure.... Fedora sounds like it's on its way to eventual collapse which is a shame.

[Weasel]

Care to share one concrete (as in remotely objective) example of a superior technology that got killed by RH?

For starters, all other init systems than systemd. Then you have PulseAudio, which technically had no alternative at the time but it got pushed so hard when it was extremely buggy that now almost everything depends on it. Nobody could come up with any alternatives, it's like pissing against the wind, you just don't do it when the wind pushes so hard. Of course, it's decent now, but it wasn't at the beginning.

You see even PipeWire tries to make compatible interface to pulse, you simply can't have an alternative otherwise. So it killed off any alternative interfaces, and let me tell you, pulse's interface is garbage, and now we're stuck with it.

Reminds me of Microsoft. Oh wait, I've said that so many times now, but MS get a lot of flak, while RH get praise. Typical open source community.

[bash2bash]

Oh you are young and/or don't really know the horrible history of IBM software

IBM owns or owned in the past, a large amount of software that was revolutionary and technically more advanced than the competition and almost all of them failed due to IBM's horrible rigid corporate strategy. To give you an example, when M$ had 16-bit single-thread DOS-based Windows 3 and Windows 95, IBM had its own 32-bit SMP (!) fully threaded, multi-tasking operating system. What did they do with it? absolutely nothing.

The IBM landscape is littered with the dead bodies of dead IBM software, like Lotus Notes (and derivative Lotus apps), Domino server and the list goes on and on...

IBM took over RedHat for their cloud software. Believe me, I know that very well, IBM needs a competing branch to AWS and Azure and RedHat is their solution. In other words, Fedora, CentOS and their likes are insignificant and don't really fit within IBM's cloud strategy.

Even the RedHat guys have been placing bets, waiting to see which piece of their software will be another dead body in the IBM landscape of dead software...

IBM is one of the most successful IT companies out there. Either they keep supporting Fedora if they believe it can successfully contribute to their services in the long-term, or it will be killed. One thing is sure, they won't burn their cash for any ideological war regarding opensource, free software and whatnot. They will just kill dead horses. If Fedora proves to be functional to their business then not only it won't be killed, but it will get even better. Let's just hope for the best and that the community is large enough to be able to fork the project in the worst case.

[Vistaus]

Funny. Normally, Cinnamon gets a lot of praise because of its stability and reliability, but in this thread, people complain that it's buggy :/

[gilboa]

Obviously with projects they push down people's throats (because they have the authority to do so).

I know people who are so used to them will now whine back like "but these things are awesome and they help Linux so much and blablabla". Well no, a lot of alternatives end up not being used because they're not as big as RH (it is exactly as it was with Microsoft's EEE, which kill off smaller alternatives) even though they would have been better. Such people will never experience them though, cause all they use is Red Hat garbage.

Of course, this is my opinion, which is why I said "I personally hope"...

Care to share one concrete (as in remotely objective) example of a superior technology that got killed by RH?

- Gilboa

[Weasel]

polluting with what?

Obviously with projects they push down people's throats (because they have the authority to do so).

I know people who are so used to them will now whine back like "but these things are awesome and they help Linux so much and blablabla". Well no, a lot of alternatives end up not being used because they're not as big as RH (it is exactly as it was with Microsoft's EEE, which kill off smaller alternatives) even though they would have been better. Such people will never experience them though, cause all they use is Red Hat garbage.

Of course, this is my opinion, which is why I said "I personally hope"...