KDE Is Down To Just One Wayland Showstopper Bug Remaining

[oiaohm]

still "equal or worse performance" which is not "better performance".
And even then exclusively full screen without any networked display involved which is the "best case" for wayland.

The global strike difference is in fact out side the margin of error. So that one is better by the numbers.

Now look at the Jan dirt rally. Nvidia had a performance problem in Jan when on Wayland that now gone. AMD still has a performance problem with Dirt rally when on Wayland in Jun.

The 10%+ performance hit using Wayland with Nvidia is gone in June.

This kind of thing has happened before under X11 where particular programs are bad with particular GPUs with particular setups.

Remember in the first jan tests there was a program that does not run at all with AMD hardware.

The only difference anyone would ever notice in that entire article is if you are on a 120hz display with a RX7900XTX playing Dirt Rally 2, when they will abandon wayland and switch back to xorg, distro hopping if needed.

See you are filtering by what user would notice. Not what the results number say no everyone is going to use that metric of what user will straight up notice. Remember what I said about truth lies and statistics.

Jan was saying Nvidia driver issue with lots of the test when using Wayland. Because AMD in those test was not showing issue so not a Wayland protocol or design issue causing this performance problem.

Now we have Dirt Rally performing correctly in june with Nvidia hardware is now confirmed that it has to be driver issue on the AMD side.


One thing to consider if X11 baremetal was optional the loss with counterstrike offensive would not be possible.

mSparks thing to remember if the performance problem was Wayland protocol you would not have the case where AMD is good and Nvidia is bad or the reverse. They would both be bad. Dirt Rally was the only benchmark in the Jan tests that could have been Wayland protocol issue but that disproved in the June tests.

[mSparks]

Now look at the Jan dirt rally. Nvidia had a performance problem in Jan when on Wayland that now gone. AMD still has a performance problem with Dirt rally when on Wayland in Jun.

.

That nvidia fixes bugs quickly and AMD doesnt shouldnt be news. claiming it is the other way round is another lie that gets perpetuated by dishonest commentators.

But once again, no wall of text is going to change the fact there is no performance gains to be had moving away from xorg server, claiming otherwise is a also a lie.

Just the fact that you can very easily measure xorgs performance impact (none) is enough to see its a lie.

Like what is the theoretical foundation for wayland being able to achieve better performance than xorg? X11 has had no noticeable performance impact on desktops since a time when supercomputers ran at 10Mhz, and its really not changed all that much since then, if anything now we get much much higher IPC than back then.

[oiaohm]

That nvidia fixes bugs quickly and AMD doesnt shouldnt be news. claiming it is the other way round is another lie that gets perpetuated by dishonest commentators.

Except this is not true either. There are many documented cases of Nvidia long term bugs. Like over 20 years to fix the bug where with Nvidia where you switch between X11 servers or ttys and the kernel panics.

The reality here AMD and Nvidia both don't have a perfect track record for fixing bugs quickly.

Its really simple to say dishonest commentators problem here is there are real examples of AMD and Nvidia have the same faults and AMD getting fixed first. Something Nvidia users don't want to consider is some of the old Nvidia bugs that uses who move to AMD hardware no longer have to deal with.

mSparks Nvidia users like you spread the lie that Nvidia bugs are all fixed quickly. AMD users have the habit of spreading the same lie for AMD hardware. Both sides the AMD/Nvidia users saying this have had bugs that effect them the worst fixed quickly giving them this false impression.

Of course the AMD users reverse the issue because to them Nvidia bugs are not fixed quickly because of items like the switch between X11 servers or ttys and so on.

Be you AMD or Nvidia user you will have cases that bug that does not effect you because you are using AMD/NVIDIA effects the other side. Yes lot of cases where it was fixed faster with AMD/Nvidia. This is normal software not perfect.

[smitty3268]

you mean like

https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/pull/10179

or do you have an actual example that doesnt contradict everything you just said.

I saw nothing there that contradicts anything I said, so you're going to have to be more specific.

[mSparks]

I saw nothing there that contradicts anything I said, so you're going to have to be more specific.

what is to be more specific about given we both agree it is wholly representative of what wayland has to offer?

[Panix]

June 2023 numbers https://www.phoronix.com/review/ubun...nd-xorg-gaming
January 2023 numbers https://www.phoronix.com/review/wayland-nv-amd-2023

I have been including the links.

It's December now. Check your calender.

[Panix]

Except this is not true either. There are many documented cases of Nvidia long term bugs. Like over 20 years to fix the bug where with Nvidia where you switch between X11 servers or ttys and the kernel panics.

The reality here AMD and Nvidia both don't have a perfect track record for fixing bugs quickly.

Its really simple to say dishonest commentators problem here is there are real examples of AMD and Nvidia have the same faults and AMD getting fixed first. Something Nvidia users don't want to consider is some of the old Nvidia bugs that uses who move to AMD hardware no longer have to deal with.

mSparks Nvidia users like you spread the lie that Nvidia bugs are all fixed quickly. AMD users have the habit of spreading the same lie for AMD hardware. Both sides the AMD/Nvidia users saying this have had bugs that effect them the worst fixed quickly giving them this false impression.

Of course the AMD users reverse the issue because to them Nvidia bugs are not fixed quickly because of items like the switch between X11 servers or ttys and so on.

Be you AMD or Nvidia user you will have cases that bug that does not effect you because you are using AMD/NVIDIA effects the other side. Yes lot of cases where it was fixed faster with AMD/Nvidia. This is normal software not perfect.

AMD takes FOREVER to fix bugs or (missing) features. They seem to do the minimum and get championed for open source drivers and open stack blah, blah, blah...This complimentary praising for AMD on here gets really old and stale. I already posted various examples several days ago.

Also, my point previously is that those benchmarks were a while ago - Nvidia has moved on to version 545.29.- etc. and perhaps, this resulted in some change here? I dunno but you quoting benchmarks of last summer is potentially misrepresenting the current situation now. I've read of AMD owners complaining about bugs or stuttering/freezes whatever it is - it's not a perfect situation and I'm told it is by many users. As for Wayland, good that AMD is in the pipeline and bad on Nvidia to take so long - but, I wonder about distros hastily ditching xorg/X - Wayland should be practically 'perfect' before they do that, imho - but, I would guess that it's not. A simple google search of 'Wayland bugs' or 'current Wayland situation' or similar will probably return some alarming info? I'd bet on that.

[oiaohm]

AMD takes FOREVER to fix bugs or (missing) features.

I will give example of what Nvidia users over look. 20 years ago Nvidia opengl driver broken it implicit sync support. This is a bug. Nvidia goes basically says if you don't want you application using implicit sync to crash go recode it to use the new explicit sync functions.

AMD does take a long time to fix bugs but when it case what happen in in breach of opengl standard/vulkan standard... They don't turn around and say sorry we AMD do what we say. Yes Nvidia will do something in breach of standards and go we are Nvidia alter your code.

I dunno but you quoting benchmarks of last summer is potentially misrepresenting the current situation now.

June is the most recent lot of benchmarks we have got on Linux that was done in controlled testing. Yet mspark was attempting to make point with even older benchmarks from January. Yes the current situation has changed.

Useful point is between Jan and jun you can see the Nvidia performance disadvantage when using Wayland going away. So at some point Wayland and Nvidia will get along. The question is not if Nvidia and Wayland will get along but how long until they do.

I've read of AMD owners complaining about bugs or stuttering/freezes whatever it is

Be warned of grass is greener the reverse.

https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/constant-single-frame-visual-stutters-perfect-ingame-framepacing/248074

Nvidia users when go looking are complaining about lot of the same bugs under Windows and Linux as what AMD owners suffer from.

Reality here is AMD and Nvidia drivers are not perfect.

Do remember people like msparks will claim that Nvidia drivers are basically perfect. Or like your claim that AMD takes forever and completely overlook all the cases where Nvidia takes forever or 20+ years to provide a feature or fix a bug. Yes switching between X11 servers or to text based terminal causing the Linux kernel to panic with Nvidia drivers and Nvidia instruction is just don't don't do that for 20 years instead of fixing the cause of the problem.

There is a big difference you know all that AMD stuttering and issues that does not cause kernel panics vs Nvidia issues that cause kernel panics. Nvidia driver as a long list of things that you must not do or you will cause the Linux kernel to panic.

AMD slower to give you features on Linux than Nvidia but they class kernel panics caused by their drivers as must be fixed.

AMD and Nvidia is basically choose your poison.

[mSparks]

Do remember people like msparks will claim that Nvidia drivers are basically perfect.

On the contrary, we have open bugs with both AMD and Nivida.
Just a lot less with nvidia and the ones we find are generally very minor and fixed quickly, there is one out when using zink atm that has gotten senior nvidia driver developers involved that was supposed to be fixed in .29 but wasn't.

The problem with AMD is their driver team while good, are massively overworked and underfunded, so unless you are basically willing to pay out of your own pocket for the dev time to fix it, it doesn't get fixed.

good job there is only one bug left in KDE though, or that problem would mean a bug free wayland KDE is still decades away, especially since it only works on AMD cards right.

[smitty3268]

what is to be more specific about given we both agree it is wholly representative of what wayland has to offer?

Your original response didn't sound like it agreed with me, but I guess I misunderstood. Sorry.