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KDE Is Down To Just One Wayland Showstopper Bug Remaining

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  • #91
    Originally posted by skierpage View Post
    Drama queens keep writing these detail-free rants, while plenty of people, including me, have been using KDE on Wayland for years (in my case, since Fedora 36 as I recall).
    Makes me wonder what you have been using it for.

    I gave plenty of details, I find it hard to believe that anyone could use it for days, let alone years, and not notice.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by sophisticles View Post

      Makes me wonder what you have been using it for.

      I gave plenty of details, I find it hard to believe that anyone could use it for days, let alone years, and not notice.
      It's pretty clear by now Wayland is serviceable on a single monitor setup, running an AMD or Intel GPU. Par for the course for something that targeted embedded devices intially.
      What is not clear is why people assume that, while widespread, that is the only setup out there that needs to be serviceable.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by bug77 View Post

        It's pretty clear by now Wayland is serviceable on a single monitor setup, running an AMD or Intel GPU. Par for the course for something that targeted embedded devices intially.
        What is not clear is why people assume that, while widespread, that is the only setup out there that needs to be serviceable.
        I think you hit on something that i myself have considered and even posted about.

        Four years ago i decided to go back to school and finish up the degrees I started over 20 years ago.

        I needed to take a bunch of Chemistry classes and one of my professors told us on the first day that he strongly recommended we use the biggest monitor we could get our hands on for homework.

        At the time I was using a home built PC, with a Ryzen and a Nvidia Quadro attached to a 24 inch monitor and thought about getting another 24 inch monitor for a dual monitor setup.

        But i decided to buy an Icelake based HP laptop and attach it to my 50 inch TV.

        Only Windows is handles this setup properly, some Linux distros are better than others and some DE's seem to be better than others, but none of them handles this setup with what could be considered perfect.

        But i don't think that the issues I have identified with KDE, through Fedora, Rocky and Ubuntu can be entirely laid at the feet of my dual monitor setup.

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        • #94
          Why are X.Org showstoppers brushed under the carpet?:
          - Nightmare to maintain (nobody willing to do it)
          - Security issues (fundamental flaws)
          - Poor privacy (due to no application separation)
          - Lacking support for modern technologies
          - No support for Wayland applications
          - No VRR support for multi-monitor setups
          - The list sort of continues with the Wayland-exclusive advantages below.

          (This post is already long enough (htf did it get to this?)


          What does Wayland (currently!) offer that X.Org can't?
          + Better security (or actual security in some cases)
          + Better privacy
          + Better performance
          + Lower power consumption (meaning longer battery life and lower temperatures)
          + Supports both Wayland and X11 applications (through XWayland)
          + Lower latency
          + HDR support
          + Color management support
          + Graphics features for gaming
          + Better touch-screen support, especially multi-touch
          + Support for multi-touch trackpad gestures
          + Better multi-monitor support
          + Better accessability capabilities
          + Has developers interested in working on it
          + Supports new frameworks
          + XWayland is actually maintained

          Feel free to make additions or corrections.


          So what I struggle to wrap my head around is:

          - What about the X.Org showstoppers?
          Why are they being brushed under the carpet?
          - Are you forgetting about XWayland?
          Your friend bridging X11 apps to Wayland.
          - In light of all this, why do people insist on staying on outdated and problematic protocols?
          Are you trivializing X.Org's problems and dead-end future? Or do you just not care and want to force everyone to stay frozen in time?
          I'm all for possibilities. If it was actually better, I'd root for it too. But it's not better. Wayland is here because it was needed.
          - What is so horrible about the idea of a better protocol?
          All I see are arguments like "this doesn't work" or it has "this issue".
          Okay, sure. But as people keep saying that and living in the past, issues are being fixed. Meanwhile, no issues are being fixed with X.Org.
          - Have people actually tried it recently or are they reliving an experience long ago?
          Wayland-issues people mention are being fixed one by one every week. A lot fixed with Plasma 5.27, a bunch more with Plasma 6.
          - Catch 22, how do we solve it?
          Break out of the loop. It's that simple.
          - Are Wayland-opponents just people who doesn't care about anything new and want to stay frozen in time?
          If you don't care about progress and just want to stay frozen in time, why would you even care about Fedora, the leading edge distro?

          You could stay frozen in time if you so desire, but if you expect people to stop moving forward because of your unwillingness to follow constructive progress, how is that not hypocritical?Why do you expect people, many of which are trying to solve X.Org user problems, to care about your use-case when you actively resist and discourage their use-case?
          - Why are people using leading-edge distros and complain when it's not following an LTS-schedule?
          There's an ocean of distros out there. It seems to me that a lot of people expect their horse-wagons to work with their car.
          - When is the right time? Why transition before it's perfect?
          There is never the "right time". Perfect is utopia.

          Just like imperial units (only partially used by USA, Myanmar and Liberia on the entire globe). There is never a convenient time, but the best time would be 100 years ago. USA actually had to, out of necessity, officially adopt the metric units system, because the imperial units system has no reliable and repeatable scientific reference.

          Imperial units system is a mess. Respectfully, it's an illogical abomination of arbitrary units and unscientific references with no way of logical conversion without relying on memorization and it's adopted by basically nobody but stubborn people thnking incredibly short-term and in turn affecting an entire planet negatively (there's also economic consequences).

          Miles, feet, inches, yards, gallons, ounces, acre, square mile and on top of that there's fractions. Amounts expressed in actual uncalculated values combined with multiple arbitrary units mashed together into horrible nightmare fuel.

          Just like the transition to the metric units system, this is objectively the right path forward. I have yet to see any real arguments against it other than "yeah but right now it's not perfect, so we all should forever suffer in imperfection and embrace total stagnation".




          Originally posted by avis View Post
          Yeah, just one, as lots of others have been moved to non-showstoppers.
          This is incorrect. And it's unreasonable the way you present it. The developer blog post sites multiple showstopper issues fixed.

          In addition to the long list of fixes and improvements (which is a weekly occurrence).

          The non-showstoppers will still be fixed, the reactions to the terminology are being blown out of proportion.

          How don't you get motivated and excited about the constant improvements? I for one appreciate the immense amount of collective effort that goes into it. If the improvements were to be represented in a chart and that trend line was a stock, I'd wanna buy it. Wouldn't you?
          Now imagine how that trend line would look for X.Org.


          Originally posted by Linuxhippy View Post
          I really hope it will work good enough when fedora will stop shipping Xorg.
          I give KDE on wayland a try every year or so and there where major showstoppers in previous years, despite it was claimed to be "almost ready".
          My most recent try "just" resulted in many applications having the same icon in the taskbar (the Wayland "W"-icon instead of the applications one) and external beamer not working as expected (which is a showstopper not only for teachers) . So till next year KDE on Wayland.
          Judging by the steady progress, I'm sure it will.

          But it's easy to feel like it's not progressing much when you aren't affected by all the issues being fixed. And there is one or more issues that is critical to your situation that remains unfixed. For all you know, they lack quality bug reports (or engangement (like a thumbs up or useful information, not "I have this problem too-posts") which indicates how widespread it is).

          And while I agree that the icon issue was/is annoying, it's a minor issue/annoyance (although important to fix).

          By external beamer you mean projector? Driver issue? If it's not a projector, you have to clue me in. :P


          Originally posted by avis View Post
          This will be the day I will stop using Fedora.

          I hope Xorg will be there for at least 20 more years. I cannot believe Wayland will fully mature outside Gnome/KDE earlier than that.
          Only the major spins will have X11 session removed. XWayland will still continue to exist.

          Why would you hope X.Org would be here for at least 20 more years?! The problems X.Org has, do you not see them?

          When you look at my reasoning, would you be willing to consider seeing the other perspective? I'm not asking you to become someone else and adopt someone else's workflow. But can you zoom out a little?

          It has been time for a long time to leave X this and X that behind.

          Originally posted by avis View Post
          This is just ugly.
          Why? It's a leading-edge distro. We get nowhere by refusing to let go of the past. It's completely reasonable for a leading distro to make this decision. If you disagree, you are on the wrong distro.

          Why shame the people who are rightfully making constructive decisions that make things better in the long run? Is it really so unreasonable for someone not wanting to maintain X.Org anymore?

          I hope we can find some common ground here. I can respect your preferences and feelings around this topic, but there's more to it than "Wayland-people doesn't get it and X.Org is totally fine". If we keep saying "nah-ah" to each other we'll get nowhere. My hope is that this discussion ascend beyond the same old "loopversations".


          Originally posted by samuelec View Post
          I wonder how many years will pass by after the first "stable" release is released and the desktop experience becomes "stable" at least as it is right now (despite the fact that I still experience random freeze where you can only move around the mouse pointer.. probably originated by Firefox that it's allowed to freeze the whole KDE)
          My guess would be 0 years.

          When I recently tried the "unstable Plasma 6 branch" it was honestly surprisingly stable. That was before the alpha state.

          There are many issues already fixed, like issues relating to app crashes bringing down other apps and being able to restore them. As well as some multi-monitor-related issues that won't be fixed in Plasma 5.27 (requires Qt6).


          Originally posted by Damnshock View Post
          The change proposal (which is now accepted) only says we (the KDE SIG) won't be shipping a plasma-x11 session. We are not removing Xorg at all.

          That being said, it is very likely that in a not so distant Fedora release the Xorg packages might not be maintained anymore. I am sorry but this is the hard reality, nobody wants to maintain that monster (and that is a personal comment, not a Fedora one ;-) ).
          Which makes sense to me as XWayland is working quite well and providing that needed compatibility layer.

          People act as if you need to choose only one, but with Wayland you get both. With time, it'll only improve (unlike X.Org). X11 apps will have to transition or they'll simply be abandoned and replaced by Wayland-capable rewrites or alternatives.




          Originally posted by openminded View Post
          How come this is not considered as showstopper I wonder...
          "Windows marked "Keep above other windows" also go above Plasma menus, Panels, and popups"
          Because there is a difference between "we should all just stay in the past because of this relatively small annoyance" and "it's good enough to make it default on a leading edge distro in order to accelerate progression".

          Waiting too long hurts progression. Someone always needs to push for advancements. It's the same in all aspects of society. If nobody did, we'd still be making fires with wood and ride on horses to get around.

          It doesn't mean it won't be fixed. Look at the amount of progress every week, hopefully this can spark some optimism.



          Originally posted by Franco Castillo View Post
          They still haven't fixed the issue where custom keys don't work. In X.Org it works as configured. Use Insert to play, Home for previous track, Page Up for next track and End to stop. These keys work on Wayland and X.Org. The ones that do not work in Wayland are others such as the subtraction operator to decrease the volume, addition operator to increase the volume and Enter to silence the volume.
          To be fair, they have been fixing a bunch of other things as well as building a foundation and adding features.

          Do you know why the issue you mention hasn't seen any progression? Not enough data, need of foundation before the feature can be completed or maybe the issue is not prioritized?



          Sometimes I feel bad for the contributors and developers working on the various projects while (some) users are being angry and discouraging. So for what it's worth, thanks for your effort. You provide optimisim and hope. Open-source software genuinely improves my life-quality, even though I sound like a hippie saying it.
          Last edited by Eudyptula; 28 November 2023, 07:44 PM.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Eudyptula View Post
            What does Wayland (currently!) offer that X.Org can't?
            + Better performance

            The only thing that matters in your entire post.
            And its a lie.

            source
            phoronix jan this year
            My own tests.



            basing policy on lies never ends well.

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            • #96
              This article raised some questions I hope someone more knowledgeable with KDE can answer me:

              1. Should I actually start switching to Plasma on Wayland permanently and (if I find time) report any crashes and bugs I encounter?
              From my experience periodically trying Wayland, the issues always became apparent quite quickly (a few days, max), and I always assumed it was to be considered in some kind of alpha/beta/WIP state, were crashes and other bugs were to be expected and not worth reporting (If you value your time, that is...).​
              Not that Plasma on X11 has had no issues, but they are usually much more minor and mostly quickly fixed. (Usually, if I run into any problem on X11, it is fixed by a system update, immense respect to the devs for that!)​

              2. Should I report (mostly small) performance degradation as well, or is that to be expected on older hardware? (will I need to install a minimal X11 WM for applications where performance is an issue?)

              3. Where are bugs encountered on openSUSE tumbleweed supposed to be reported to and do I need to do anything crazy to get that supposedly almost show-stopper free version, or is newest Plasma from tumbleweed fine?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                The only thing that matters in your entire post.
                And its a lie.

                source
                phoronix jan this year

                basing policy on lies never ends well.
                Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite


                mSparks this is not the first time I have pointed you you are cherry picking. The Jan data it was not a trend that X11 was always faster there was outlier. That youtube you linked are you after to make advertising money. As you told me that is Nvidia hardware that Nvidia even then said was busted with Wayland.

                Of the games tested, on the Radeon side the only major Wayland issue encountered was the very poor performance of DiRT Rally 2.0 on Steam Play under the GNOME Wayland session.
                Yes quoting the image is mSparks means to avoid the fact that jan test result had a issue that could be isolated problem. There are latter test results in the test archive that phoronix has that shows dirt rally 2.0 performance has improved.

                Better performance of Wayland like it or not may be true once all the outlier issues are fixed up.

                Outlier issues have happened when comparing X11 to Windows in performance as well so this is not just a wayland vs x11 testing only problem.

                Nvidia performance with Wayland has improved alot still way to go.

                The odds are high that the next Wayland vs X11 test that X11 bare metal will lose in all tests.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                  basing policy on lies never ends well.
                  First, that's clear labelled as an XWayland test, not native Wayland. Also, expecting full screen 3d games to be faster is not really the point of Wayland, as those should just entirely bypass all of X (and Wayland) to be directly displayed with near zero overhead regardless of whatever display server you are running. When people talk about better performance, they're mostly referring to actual application windows, and things like lower power usage for video, etc.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                    you are cherry picking.
                    I am pointing out there is not a single example to support the theory "wayland has better performance"
                    and plenty that contradicts it.
                    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post

                    When people talk about better performance, they're mostly referring to actual application windows, and things like lower power usage for video, etc.
                    you mean like

                    For those picking up on this as "news", please read the following list: PCSX2 still supports Wayland. It just prefers the XCB/XWayland platform by default. You can set the I_WANT_A_BROKEN_WAYLAND_...


                    or do you have an actual example that doesnt contradict everything you just said.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                      I am pointing out there is not a single example to support the theory "wayland has better performance"
                      and plenty that contradicts it.
                      If you go though the JAN results X11 did not always win. So you quote from something that showed that wayland sometimes has better performance just you cherry picked the merge result because that was the result you wanted.

                      So claim that there is no a single example of wayland having better performance is true because you quoted something with multi examples of Wayland performance being better even with the overhead of Xwayland.

                      Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                      you mean like

                      For those picking up on this as "news", please read the following list: PCSX2 still supports Wayland. It just prefers the XCB/XWayland platform by default. You can set the I_WANT_A_BROKEN_WAYLAND_...


                      or do you have an actual example that doesnt contradict everything you just said.


                      No there is something particular about PCSX that does make it a problem child. Note everything with a configure button next to it. Those are all individual executable. Including the window that appears to pop up when you click on the configure button yes window from plugin application comes up.

                      Inability to position windows => window position saving doesn't work, log window attaching (not merged yet) doesn't work
                      Wanting that to work between multi applications.

                      90 percent of applications don't need this feature and causes more problems than it worth for end users. PCSX2 happens to be the in the 10 percent.

                      Lot of ways PCSX2 to behave should have had it own proxy Wayland compositor.
                      Last edited by oiaohm; 29 November 2023, 11:54 AM.

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