Hope Seems Lost In Running OS X Binaries On Linux

[ninez]

Considering how many games you find on Windows are now on Mac, plenty of users would prefer this. OSX and linux have a lot more in common than Windows does with either of them. That being said, generally speaking, we'd get better performance out of Mac software than we would with Windows.

You _may_ get better performance (out of things like OpenGL, since you don't have to worry about d3d->OpenGL), but aside from that - you can't really be claiming Darling would yield better performance for apps (or games), since Darling never even came close to being able to run any of MacOSX's frameworks, which would be required to run this kinda thing && you don't know what other sort of bottlenecks may hinder performance.

Otherwise, generally there aren't any Mac-exclusive programs Linux users would seriously care about using.

You mean "there aren't any Mac-exclusive programs that YOU would seriously care about using".

Maybe you think gaming is all that matters, but some of us could care less about trans-gaming and care more about applications that allow work to be done. The fact is, when it comes to productivity, publishing/design, proaudio, etc - MacOSX has lots of exclusive titles/apps and (unfortunately) often Linux apps of a similar nature are crappy in comparison (if they exist at all) or they may be similar but far more buggy / less refined. ~ just as an example; http://blog.greggant.com/post/642967...pps-october-20 (53 titles/apps, mac only - and this is one small example.)...

Then there is also the case, where (personally / in my own experiences) i prefer MacOSX versions of software over the Windows version -> as is the case with all Adobe products (CS), Avid Protools, etc. ~ If the option actually existed (which it doesn't); I would prefer to be using Adobe/CS as a Mac version via Darling over using the Windows version via Wine on Linux. (I keep a Mac around for reasons like this, where Linux falls short).

[schmidtbag]

You _may_ get better performance (out of things like OpenGL, since you don't have to worry about d3d->OpenGL), but aside from that - you can't really be claiming Darling would yield better performance for apps (or games), since Darling never even came close to being able to run any of MacOSX's frameworks, which would be required to run this kinda thing && you don't know what other sort of bottlenecks may hinder performance.

Well, aren't you pleasant, reading things the way you want to. I said "generally", implying that I didn't say you WILL get better performance.

You mean "there aren't any Mac-exclusive programs that YOU would seriously care about using".

Maybe you think gaming is all that matters, but some of us could care less about trans-gaming and care more about applications that allow work to be done. The fact is, when it comes to productivity, publishing/design, proaudio, etc - MacOSX has lots of exclusive titles/apps and (unfortunately) often Linux apps of a similar nature are crappy in comparison (if they exist at all) or they may be similar but far more buggy / less refined. ~ just as an example; http://blog.greggant.com/post/642967...pps-october-20 (53 titles/apps, mac only - and this is one small example.)...

Then there is also the case, where (personally / in my own experiences) i prefer MacOSX versions of software over the Windows version -> as is the case with all Adobe products (CS), Avid Protools, etc. ~ If the option actually existed (which it doesn't); I would prefer to be using Adobe/CS as a Mac version via Darling over using the Windows version via Wine on Linux. (I keep a Mac around for reasons like this, where Linux falls short).

No, I mean most linux advocates dislike Apple and don't want to use their products. Personally, I'd like something like Xcode to be ported to linux, and Final Cut would make a great addition to linux. Of course there are some Mac exclusive applications that linux users would want, but I can't think of a single one that would be a necessity. The bottom line is, Mac only has a handful of exclusive programs, games, production or otherwise, that are better than their competitors, whether those competitive programs also be on Mac, or if they are on Windows. While the Adobe CS isn't a direct clone on Mac, you're not helping prove your point by bringing it up, as it does also exist on Windows.

[ninez]

Well, aren't you pleasant, reading things the way you want to. I said "generally", implying that I didn't say you WILL get better performance.

There was absolutely nothing "unpleasant" about what i said, maybe you just don't like that i disagreed? ...2nd. You can't sit here and try to revise what you said; Shall i quote you again?

Considering how many games you find on Windows are now on Mac, plenty of users would prefer this. OSX and linux have a lot more in common than Windows does with either of them. That being said, generally speaking, we'd get better performance out of Mac software than we would with Windows.

So yes, you said performance (generally speaking) would be better - but you don't actually know that at all. (as i pointed out). Yes, Linux and MacOSX are unix-like OSes - but they also differ quite a bit and don't share the same ABI or APIs - so again, there may be all sorts (in theory) of performance bottlenecks that we wouldn't be aware of..

No, I mean most linux advocates dislike Apple and don't want to use their products. Personally, I'd like something like Xcode to be ported to linux, and Final Cut would make a great addition to linux. Of course there are some Mac exclusive applications that linux users would want, but I can't think of a single one that would be a necessity. The bottom line is, Mac only has a handful of exclusive programs, games, production or otherwise, that are better than their competitors, whether those competitive programs also be on Mac, or if they are on Windows. While the Adobe CS isn't a direct clone on Mac, you're not helping prove your point by bringing it up, as it does also exist on Windows.

Out of the apps from that one link (that i posted of 53 apps); less than a handful were "Made by Apple". Most are 3rd party apps (like 40+ of them, and that was <again> a small example of Apple exclusive apps, most not made by apple. But in reality, there are tonnes). Lastly regarding Adobe/CS - I'm curious do you have poor reading comprehension?? -> because i dealt with the case of Adobe/CS being available for Windows - it falls into the cateogry of "I prefer the mac version over the Windows version" && if given the option would rather use Adobe/CS with Darling, over Wine/Windows version (and yes, it's not a clone on Mac of windows version)... (i also cited Avid Protools as being another example, where the Mac version is better than Windows version).

Anyway, I don't think "you're helping your case" by back-peddling, revising previous statements and making claims that are demonstrably wrong (like claiming their are only a "few apps", when in a single link - i pointed you to 50+ mac only apps, most of which are better than linux-counterparts, if they exist at all).

cheerz / happy hoho

[ninez]

No, I mean most linux advocates dislike Apple and don't want to use their products.

Can you please quantify the above statement, because while i prefer Linux over Mac, i don't dislike Apple and don't have anything against their products... Neither does the owner and operator of the very website/forum that you are posting in (Michael)... Furthermore, there a lot of linux developers who own Apple products - and even do their development on Apple computers. (and go to the effort to make sure that Apple's H/W is supported).

I think you should stop generalizing about what other people like or don't like and just speak for yourself. (since in reality, that is the only person you can speak for anyway).

[peppercats]

Wine is extremely mature now, I'm honestly curious what binaries that are available on OSX that are not available on windows/linux.

[LubosD]

Hope seems lost in Phoronix's reporting credibility. Phoronix makes assumptions without getting in touch with the author (me).

The fact is that the loader is in a good shape, dmg loading works and the focus is on working with the GNUstep project.

[russofris]

No, I mean most linux advocates dislike Apple and don't want to use their products.

I'm both a Linux and Apple advocate, and have found that the two work together quite well. I find most Linux advocates are entirely indifferent as to Apple's offerings., and often look to them for inspiration and perspective. Perhaps, in time, Apple will adopt Linux in the same manner that Google did.

What caught my attention,and prompted this post, is that you spoke as if you actually persoanlly knew what linux advocates like or dislike. It's fun to project our own personal beliefs on a majority, but it's not going to win you any arguments.

F

[schmidtbag]

There was absolutely nothing "unpleasant" about what i said, maybe you just don't like that i disagreed? ...2nd. You can't sit here and try to revise what you said; Shall i quote you again?

The unpleasant part is the fact that you're nitpicking over something really not important, and playing devil's advocate simply because you can. You're trying to be WAY to literal, and it just makes you look like an ass. You exaggerate what I said and you turned it around in a way I didn't mean. That's not pleasing. Your next quote is a great example of that:

So yes, you said performance (generally speaking) would be better - but you don't actually know that at all. (as i pointed out). Yes, Linux and MacOSX are unix-like OSes - but they also differ quite a bit and don't share the same ABI or APIs - so again, there may be all sorts (in theory) of performance bottlenecks that we wouldn't be aware of..

I NEVER said that performance IS better. I never said it WILL be better. I'm saying that theoretically, it COULD be better, because there are enough similarities that there is less to work with, in comparison to Windows. Oh, I'm sorry, I never said "could", I guess that must mean I'm revising what I said *sarcasm*. Seriously, drop the dictionary - the literalness is getting old. But back to the point, yes, there are ABIs and APIs that linux and mac don't share, but Windows differs even more. A good way to look at this is doing a heart transplant from a pig to a human vs a dolphin to a human. For arguments sake, lets say both are doable. One is obviously going to go a lot smoother than the other, but, neither will be without its problems. This is my gripe with you - it's blatantly obvious that running OSX programs in linux is not going to be a perfect or smooth task, but it's inherently more likely to be less of a hassle. The only point I was trying to make was that doing an OSX compatibility layer has great potential to turn out better than Wine. Your insistence on "well we can't PROVE that" is really unnecessary to mention, and again, nitpicking.

Out of the apps from that one link (that i posted of 53 apps); less than a handful were "Made by Apple". Most are 3rd party apps (like 40+ of them, and that was <again> a small example of Apple exclusive apps, most not made by apple. But in reality, there are tonnes).

ok? What's your point?

Lastly regarding Adobe/CS - I'm curious do you have poor reading comprehension?? -> because i dealt with the case of Adobe/CS being available for Windows - it falls into the cateogry of "I prefer the mac version over the Windows version" && if given the option would rather use Adobe/CS with Darling, over Wine/Windows version (and yes, it's not a clone on Mac of windows version)... (i also cited Avid Protools as being another example, where the Mac version is better than Windows version).

Its not about having poor reading comprehension, I just simply didn't read it because you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, or rather, why you're arguing with me in the first place. I don't care whether or not you prefer the Mac version of a program, and I don't care if there are exclusives for Mac - that wasn't the point of my original message. Darling is obviously ideal for the small % of Mac-exclusive programs, I'm not disagreeing with that.

Anyway, I don't think "you're helping your case" by back-peddling, revising previous statements and making claims that are demonstrably wrong (like claiming their are only a "few apps", when in a single link - i pointed you to 50+ mac only apps, most of which are better than linux-counterparts, if they exist at all).

I'm not back-peddling, you're just being too literal and interpreting things differently because I'm not phrasing things exactly the same. And my claims aren't demonstrably wrong, because I'm certain I could pick out 10 random applications from that list and find an alternative that works on either Windows or linux. If I find one that has no alternative, I don't think anyone would need it either. Mac isn't known for mission-critical applications. I'm not dissing the OS, I'm just pointing that out.

Can you please quantify the above statement, because while i prefer Linux over Mac, i don't dislike Apple and don't have anything against their products... Neither does the owner and operator of the very website/forum that you are posting in (Michael)... Furthermore, there a lot of linux developers who own Apple products - and even do their development on Apple computers. (and go to the effort to make sure that Apple's H/W is supported).

I think you should stop generalizing about what other people like or don't like and just speak for yourself. (since in reality, that is the only person you can speak for anyway).

Yes, I can quantify that - most doesn't mean all. YOU are the one CHOOSING to generalize. For someone so literal, I'm surprised you haven't figured that out "most =/= all". If you stopped doing that, you would have no need to have ever replied to me from the very beginning. I don't dislike Apple products either - I owned an iPad 2, I have a computer I built that runs exclusively OSX, and I have a VM that runs Mac. So I'd be a hypocrite if I were to say all linux users dislike Apple.

[ninez]

The unpleasant part is the fact that you're nitpicking over something really not important, and playing devil's advocate simply because you can. You're trying to be WAY to literal, and it just makes you look like an ass. You exaggerate what I said and you turned it around in a way I didn't mean. That's not pleasing. Your next quote is a great example of that:

No, I am not playing Devil's advocate - at all. Schmidtbag - you seriously need to STFU with claiming you know about what goes on in other people's heads, their intentions and such. I'm both a Mac and Linux user - and i disagreed with several of your points and generalizations, I'm sorry that you can't seem to deal with people not sharing your opinions, but oh well. not my problem

I NEVER said that performance IS better. I never said it WILL be better. I'm saying that theoretically, it COULD be better, because there are enough similarities that there is less to work with, in comparison to Windows. Oh, I'm sorry, I never said "could", I guess that must mean I'm revising what I said *sarcasm*. Seriously, drop the dictionary - the literalness is getting old. But back to the point, yes, there are ABIs and APIs that linux and mac don't share, but Windows differs even more. A good way to look at this is doing a heart transplant from a pig to a human vs a dolphin to a human. For arguments sake, lets say both are doable. One is obviously going to go a lot smoother than the other, but, neither will be without its problems. This is my gripe with you - it's blatantly obvious that running OSX programs in linux is not going to be a perfect or smooth task, but it's inherently more likely to be less of a hassle. The only point I was trying to make was that doing an OSX compatibility layer has great potential to turn out better than Wine. Your insistence on "well we can't PROVE that" is really unnecessary to mention, and again, nitpicking.

Dude, I NEVER claimed that you were saying performance IS better, nor did i claim you said is WILL be better. (more of your poor reading comprehension at work?) - My comments were based on what YOU wrote; we 'would' get better performance. (which is different than COULD or IS or WILL) - i didn't force you to say that - you chose those words - hence why i commented in the first place. (aside from wanting to comment on your insanely stupid generalizations about "linux advocates"...lolz). As for your "biggest gripe with me" - I think you are under the impression that Linux and XNU are far more similar than they actually are (and that's only kernel side). Darling is relying on GNUStep, which isn't even at feature parity with cocoa in MacOSX 10.5.x (although, GNUstep contains some 10,6/7 compatible code/interfaces), it's development is slow and there isn't a whole lot of different developers working on it - if you look at their commits.... There are significant differences between kernels and userspace components and so far, I am not all that convinced that getting Apple's core frameworks, quartz-extreme, etc is going to be all that easy to support. (in fact, it's probably not all that different than the Windows/Wine situation in many regards - with the exception that Wine is commercially backed and has quite a lot of contributors)... IMO, your heart-transplant analogy is quite poor / overly simplistic.

ok? What's your point?

Its not about having poor reading comprehension, I just simply didn't read it because you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, or rather, why you're arguing with me in the first place. I don't care whether or not you prefer the Mac version of a program, and I don't care if there are exclusives for Mac - that wasn't the point of my original message. Darling is obviously ideal for the small % of Mac-exclusive programs, I'm not disagreeing with that.

lolz. If you didn't read it - then why quote and comment on it, then? ...and unlike you, i actually took the time to read your posts (and don't make pathetic excuses) - meaning i am NOT just arguing for arguments sake - but being as you have already admitted that you didn't even read my posts (yet, laughably chose to respond...lolz ~ then i think the reality of this situation is that you are just arguing for arguments sake - since you're responding in such a way)...

I'm not back-peddling, you're just being too literal and interpreting things differently because I'm not phrasing things exactly the same. And my claims aren't demonstrably wrong, because I'm certain I could pick out 10 random applications from that list and find an alternative that works on either Windows or linux. If I find one that has no alternative, I don't think anyone would need it either. Mac isn't known for mission-critical applications. I'm not dissing the OS, I'm just pointing that out.

Maybe you should (again!) stop claiming what other people 'need' or 'don't need' -> you can only speak for yourself! <that is it!> I know several hardcore linux guys who keep a Mac around for certain apps, where linux falls short or has no alternative. (so it doesn't fsking matter whether or not YOU 'dont think anyone would need it either'. ~ you're not in the position to be dictating what other people require at all. (again, you can only determine your own needs)... "mission critical apps"??? lolz. ~ what does that have to do with anything???? (nothing really). Mac's are used in several industries, where things just need to work all of the time, without hassles. - It's why Apple has been so successful in the publishing Industry, Music industry, etc... While they may not be 'mission criticial applications', like something NASA or stock-markets, etc - it's still pretty critical that things run smoothly, without problems (when your liing/business depends on it).

Yes, I can quantify that - most doesn't mean all. YOU are the one CHOOSING to generalize. For someone so literal, I'm surprised you haven't figured that out "most =/= all". If you stopped doing that, you would have no need to have ever replied to me from the very beginning. I don't dislike Apple products either - I owned an iPad 2, I have a computer I built that runs exclusively OSX, and I have a VM that runs Mac. So I'd be a hypocrite if I were to say all linux users dislike Apple.

You can't even make that claim, that 'most' do. Sorry, but that doesn't fly. - again, you can only speak for yourself - not anyone else, and certainly not 'most linux advocates'. lolz, and as far as 'generalizing' - you're in no position to be claiming others are generalizing, with the shitbag of generalizations that have come out of your mouth.

BTW, publicly sharing that you are violating Apple's EULA and advocate piracy probably isn't all that smart. Maybe rather than doing that, if you like Apple and their products - maybe you should actually be buying their products rather than stealing from them / partaking in Illegal activities...

[schmidtbag]

@ninez
The irony is you're all fretful about how opinions work yet you're trying WAY too hard to diminish mine, to the point that you're making some of your opinions sound more generalized than my own. And for what? Look back to my original post and anyone would agree that the amount of effort you put in was overkill when you could have easily summarized your argument into "you are being too general about your claims". From the very beginning you've blown this way out of proportion, and you're still doing it, so I'm ending this here (on my end).