FreeBSD Adopts A New Code of Conduct Based On The LLVM CoC

[CochainComplex]

Whether you think it serves a purpose or not doesn't matter. It's a matter of following social norms and the rules of discourse. If you are talking to someone in person, and they say "Please call me Dr. Whatever" - the proper and polite thing to do is call them "Dr. Whatever". If you purposely call them something else to their face - they are going to get agitated, and you are going to see repercussions because of it.

One point not mentioned here but is a part of our social norm as well. Are you allowed to be called the way you want to be called? If I haven't done a phd im not allowed to be called Dr. (this does not apply to an art context - like Dr. Bend - the artist with extreme body properties).
This is/was an issue if you are a transgender, too. But how far can you go? Individualism and dignity versus feasibility.
If you have a national database with all your citizens how difficult is it to change the entries for possible genders?
Especially if everything is run on two entries since the very beginning of those Databases. Im not arguing that it should be done or shouldn't be done. I totally support the rights of LGBT community.
I just want to try to understand both sides. Because I think people being against this wide gender pluralism are simply overwhelmed by the amount of additional effort to learn the conventions and apply them in daily life. Especially if they know that this might "only" apply to a minority of 1/1000 or even less 1/10 000 according to this figures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual#Prevalence.

[ALRBP]

Wow COC that is not based on postmodern neo-marxist ideas. Is it even possible in 21st century?

EDIT: reply



That is actually not true. There is obviously 2 genders not as some news agencies standardize it to be 52 or 81 genders.

Since nobody can deny that there are actually genetically 2 genders instead of 52 and the fact that extremist left don't represent working class anymore since working people are more likely to vote for lower taxes and less government intervention. Extreme left now strive on identity politics they are now using LGBT community for their goals some psychologists are calling them postmodern neo-marxist and I completely agree with them. They are completely refusing to accept biology (postmodern part) and are calling for neo-marxist ideas.

"nobody can deny that there are actually genetically 2 genders instead of 52"
This is factually false for several reasons. First, XX and XY, while the most common, are not the only existing genotypes. Second, the observed sex of an individual can be different from the one prescribed by his/her genotype. Third, gender is NOT sex. Male gender, in our society, prevents you from wearing a dress, this is NOT biological (and, if you look at some old painting, you can see European kings in dress, thighs and heels, so this is not at all invariable). Gender, unlike biological sex, is a social construct. It may be based on sex but it is NOT sex.

"working people are more likely to vote for lower taxes and less government intervention"
I do not know for your country, but in my country (France), even right-wing "working class" usually wants more government intervention and taxes for rich (but not for them). So this is factually false, at least in some countries. But the fact that people vote for some government does not mean that this government actually represents their interest, it just means they have good propaganda. (Trump is a pro of fake-based social media propaganda)

"some psychologists are calling them postmodern neo-marxist"
Most psychologists are what you call "postmodern neo-marxists" (usual moderate)…

[starshipeleven]

Since nobody can deny that there are actually genetically 2 genders instead of 52

"gender" is a social construct. For genetics there is only sex.
Male/female is sex, not gender.
Man/woman is gender, not sex.

Being a social construct you can have all you want as gender and the only requirement is that everyone agrees on it. There is no "right number" of genders". It's all arbitrary.

The sane and rational way forward is drop genders entirely, and use the same pronouns for everything.

From a purely linguistic standpoint, this would massively simplify a lot of languages where even inanimate objects have been assigned (arbitrarily) genders for unknown reasons, and must use gender-specific pronouns for inanimate objects too (italian and spanish for example).

[AmericanLocomotive]

I can assure that nobody is using Dr. Sgt. or any other prefixes in Open Source communities and remembering it is useless thing. Keep your 824124 genders to yourself, it doesn't show your value and purpose in society as does Dr or as does hierarchy where it is needed when using Sgt. It consists important information for the most people in certain parts of society.

Whether you think it serves a purpose or not doesn't matter. It's a matter of following social norms and the rules of discourse. If you are talking to someone in person, and they say "Please call me Dr. Whatever" - the proper and polite thing to do is call them "Dr. Whatever". If you purposely call them something else to their face - they are going to get agitated, and you are going to see repercussions because of it.

It just makes your force people to remember something that has no value to them. He or she is used if you don't know someones role in society. Sgt is useful in military in many ways, but your gender isn't useful information to anyone.

Once again, it doesn't matter if it has value to you - it has value and is important to them. I personally think pet goldfish are pointless and stupid, but if my girlfriend asked me to feed her fish while she went away on a trip - you bet I would. Why? Because it's important to her, and I respect her. If she comes back to a dead fish, and I explain to her that goldfish are ultimately unimportant and are useless, I'm going to end up with no girlfriend. If someone has a particular name or title they prefer to be called - I will call them that, because clearly it's important to them, and I respect them.

I am not calling anyone Jew or associate people with any group since I don't care what group someone is.

You said: "We all know what happens when you start forcing people to accept your belief system or your religion." My point was that no one is forcing to "accept" their beliefs or their "religion". No one is forcing you to be a non-binary gender. No one is forcing you to be gay/straight. No one is forcing you to accept a non-birth given name. No one is forcing you to adopt that lifestyle. They are simply asking that you address them by whatever they preferred to be called.

I'm all about individualism instead of neo-marxist values and I call people in gender they look to be part of. such as he or she. Calling anyone Zi doesn't add any value to society.

So if you see a man, that happens to look female (long hair, slim body, no facial hair). but is otherwise straight/cisgendered, you will call them a girl/she/her because they look like one? ..and you will continue to do so after they correct you that they are indeed a straight man?

should we have gender classes to learn all genders and imagine remembering all those pronouns

No? Just like how you don't have a class to remember every single possible name, you just need to remember what people ask you to call them. If I ask you to call me Larry, don't call me Tom just because you can't be bothered to remember the name Larry.

I'm all for preventing hate speech but I'm also for not forcing anyone to force me to do or say anything. Those are 2 different things

No one is forcing you to do anything. They are simply asking that you address them by their preferred gender/name. Don't want to follow those rules? Don't participate in the discussion. Simple.

[ALRBP]

They seem pretty compatible to me. Postmodernism rejects and belittles everything, including morality and culture. Marxism makes the economic structure the base and everything else is a superstructure (a derivation of it), including morality and culture. Both are pretty cynical views of humanity. Not judging you if you like them, it's just my opinion.

"They seem pretty compatible to me"
As I said, both are incompatible and, as a Marxist, I dislike postmodernism. Postmodernism does not reject morality and culture, anti-discrimination is morality and, for postmodernists, everything is cultural, this is why they reject objective science, but they do not reject culture at all. Your view on Marxism is closer to reality, the economic structure is the base for Marxists, but that's not exclusive to Marxism and I find that it is somewhat true. Economy is the most important part of a productive society's organization, no matter the ideology (socialism, capitalism…). Now, Marxist do have a morality, the idea that workers should get the product of their work is a morality. Maybe that the morality of postmodernists and Marxists is not the same as yours but it is still a morality, and for culture, well, I can attest that Marxists, (as postmodernists), are commonly involved in cultural activities, so, they do not reject culture, they just believe that western traditional culture should not lead the society. Your view on culture and morality is probably different from both, Marxists' and postmodernists', but that does not mean they reject it, they do have morality, culture, just not the same as yours.

[L_A_G]

Well that looks pretty reasonable and reading trough it I literally didn't find anything to object to. Thou I'm sure that a bunch of people take the fact that I, someone who has been vocal about the potential overreach of CoCs like the contributor covenant that swing between being oddly vague and oddly specific, don't take issue with anything in it as something to take issue with.

Thou I still have to admit that I am a bigger fan of the very short and to-the-point nature of the Ruby and PostgreSQL CoCs. Be nice to people, don't just assume everything is an insult or harassment and if you can't follow those two things, then go away.

[paupav]

The real issue with that one is the example they chose, and not the intent of the rule. I think they were hoping to prevent people from basically writing vulgar erotica to other users (which I've seen some people do on forums before in an attempt to weird another user out)


Science has always used the word "sex" to describe someones biological sex. Gender is very much a cultural construct. There are some cultures with so-called "third" and "fourth" genders, or even "genders" were someone can freely choose what they want on any given day.

No one is forcing you to pick a gender that doesn't match your biological sex. They're just asking you to respect their choice. Using a certain pronoun when addressing someone is no harder than remembering a prefix such as Dr., or remembering a name. If my name is Dr. Bob, but you call me Sgt. Larry despite me reminding you 10 times, well that's on you. If you purposely keep referring to me as Sgt. Larry, then it's only reasonable you get your posting rights (or your patches denied) removed on whatever forum/mailing list.

This isn't a good argument. There's a big difference between saying "I am a Jew, and you need to convert to Judaism or else" and "I am a Jew, and I would appreciate it if you respected that and called me a Jew instead of whatever"

...but the rules are still essentially exactly the same. There's nothing wrong with controlling language in a private online community. It's pretty much a requirement to maintain order and proper discourse. FreeBSD isn't some kind of government entity - they're not "oppressing" anyone, If you don't like the rules, don't participate, it's really that simple. It's a bit different than an oppressive government where a citizen can't exactly just get up and leave.

1. I can assure that nobody is using Dr. Sgt. or any other prefixes in Open Source communities and remembering it is useless thing. Keep your 824124 genders to yourself, it doesn't show your value and purpose in society as does Dr or as does hierarchy where it is needed when using Sgt. It consists important information for the most people in certain parts of society.
   It just makes your force people to remember something that has no value to them. He or she is used if you don't know someones role in society. Sgt is useful in military in many ways, but your gender isn't useful information to anyone.
2. I am not calling anyone Jew or associate people with any group since I don't care what group someone is, I'm all about individualism instead of neo-marxist values and I call people in gender they look to be part of. such as he or she. Calling anyone Zi doesn't add any value to society.
3. should we have gender classes to learn all genders and imagine remembering all those pronouns
4. I'm all for preventing hate speech but I'm also for not forcing anyone to force me to do or say anything. Those are 2 different things
5. Also much has changed since it is not specific about forcing someone to call someone with pronouns

[PeyTy]

Now, the new CoC says essentially the same things as the old one, just in a less politically-marked way.

I'm having the same feeling. Trying to develop a CoC which is more about contributions to the actual project, and explicit about things like reverse discrimination/etc

And I don't like that 1984 stuff about emotion control. Like "be friendly and patient". There are lot's of people with OCD which may say weird stuff from time to time and not protected by such CoCs.

[AmericanLocomotive]

Somehow: I dont get the no simulated hugs one...I personally dislike getting hugs (real) by non-close-friend/family individuals. But how is a virtual hug harmful in any way? Or does it imply that the hug sender might get fantasies about touching someone in unappropriate way and this is considered as sexual harassment?

The real issue with that one is the example they chose, and not the intent of the rule. I think they were hoping to prevent people from basically writing vulgar erotica to other users (which I've seen some people do on forums before in an attempt to weird another user out)

You had to use pronouns such as xir, xis, ve, ze etc. remember them and If person got mad your patches could be refused from what I understand.

We I'm not talking of course in this case about rocks, tables nor words that have no gender nor any words for that matter. We are here talking about genders when relating to individuals in open source community's communication and there are 2 genders you can chose from. Either be male or female and don't force people to accept your views of the world and to remember 5235235 pronouns for all the genders you make up.

Science has always used the word "sex" to describe someones biological sex. Gender is very much a cultural construct. There are some cultures with so-called "third" and "fourth" genders, or even "genders" were someone can freely choose what they want on any given day.

No one is forcing you to pick a gender that doesn't match your biological sex. They're just asking you to respect their choice. Using a certain pronoun when addressing someone is no harder than remembering a prefix such as Dr., or remembering a name. If my name is Dr. Bob, but you call me Sgt. Larry despite me reminding you 10 times, well that's on you. If you purposely keep referring to me as Sgt. Larry, then it's only reasonable you get your posting rights (or your patches denied) removed on whatever forum/mailing list.

We all know what happens when you start forcing people to accept your belief system or your religion.

This isn't a good argument. There's a big difference between saying "I am a Jew, and you need to convert to Judaism or else" and "I am a Jew, and I would appreciate it if you respected that and called me a Jew instead of whatever"

They dropped the language of those activists. Controlling language is crucial for policing people and oppressing them but this new CoC uses neutral language which means activists lost, and it's great.

...but the rules are still essentially exactly the same. There's nothing wrong with controlling language in a private online community. It's pretty much a requirement to maintain order and proper discourse. FreeBSD isn't some kind of government entity - they're not "oppressing" anyone, If you don't like the rules, don't participate, it's really that simple. It's a bit different than an oppressive government where a citizen can't exactly just get up and leave.

[geearf]

We I'm not talking of course in this case about rocks, tables nor words that have no gender nor any words for that matter. We are here talking about genders when relating to individuals in open source community's communication and there are 2 genders you can chose from. Either be male or female and don't force people to accept your views of the world and to remember 5235235 pronouns for all the genders you make up.
We all know what happens when you start forcing people to accept your belief system or your religion.

Aren't male and female words for sex and not gender?
Wouldn't the genders be men and women (or boy and girl I guess)?