There's One Week Left To Apply For Outreachy Round 15

[ParticleBoard]

Threads on this subject make me despair at the Phoronix community. This program isn't racist or sexist, a private organisation is using it's own money and resources to boost under-represented groups involvement in the FOSS community. It doesn't hurt or disadvantage anyone. No need to get so butt hurt over something that doesn't affect you really that much.

"a private organisation is using it's own money and resources" LIAR! https://www.gnome.org/wp-content/upl...AR2012-web.pdf pg.17
In 2012 roughly 25% went to "Women's Outreach". How soon you conveniently forget that many donators were upset their money was being used for this tripe. Of course in true form they were just called misogynists because that's how you emotional toddlers react to any valid criticism.

This isn't racist. check.
repeating "under-represented" buzzword narrative. check.
people complaining are "butthurt" (or trolls etc). check.

You are a true cliche brainlessly regurgitating tumbler-tier feminism talking points. Take your sanctimonious "despair" and shove it.

[danieru]

I'm not the one getting all worked up over a representative initiative on an online forum.

No but you're the one getting all worked up on other people's opinion in an online forum. If anything you're just as bad as you think I am.

[Luke_Wolf]

I wasn't complaining to be fair. There is still a lot of interest from a lot of people in these minority groups and from female programmers in this direction. Why do some people have to make such a big deal about this? No one is riffing on white male programmers at all. This is just a gross misrepresentation by the people who are actually complaining here.

Except it's not a gross misrepresentation, if you had actually been paying attention to the people pushing the We Need More Women in STEM narrative, or even just the greater Feminist movement for the past few years you'd know that. They are explicitly anti-white and anti-male, regarding masculinity and "whiteness" (whatever that's supposed to mean) as "toxic", and that somehow magically masculinity is preventing women from entering STEM.

The difference between the GSA, Curves, various Fraterrnal and Sorority organizations, and other gender discriminating organizations and something like Outreachy, is that the former aren't making claims towards "equality" or being "anti-discrimination", whereas Outreachy is trying to solve a Feminist lie by discriminating. Which makes them a hypocritical organization.

Now certainly some people here would be hypocritical in being fine with the aforementioned organizations but being against discrimination. However most aren't ready to challenge the notion that racism, sexism, etc discrimination is universally bad, as opposed to only being bad within particular contexts. There's plenty of discrimination that makes sense: bathrooms, gyms, dorms, scouting organizations, anything that supports the disabled, immigration policy (can't just let anyone in, we want the best and brightest after all), and so on. But one can hardly blame them when society has dictated it's the worst thing someone can be.

[scottishduck]

You're obviously a Feminist because you're complaining about under-representation of women in Comp Sci, as everyone else acknowledges that there are fundamental differences between men and women that result in them having statistically different interests which when they have economic freedom (which is to say when personal interest rather than economic necessity drives employment choices) they express, which is the sole reason behind STEM being majority male, and Nursing, K-12 Education, and such being majority female.

Ergo situations like what happened with the BSA are the fault of people just like you.

If you cared about statistics you'd know that women used to be extremely prominent in comp sci until a sustained period of discouragement.

[Luke_Wolf]

If you cared about statistics you'd know that women used to be extremely prominent in comp sci until a sustained period of discouragement.

Except that's not true at all. Women were prominent in Computer Science, and other fields they aren't usually in as a consequence of this thing you might have heard of called World War 2, which caused all of the men to go off to war causing the workforce to be 90% women. Then after World War 2, and a return to a normal halfway split of the workforce between men and women, men began to retake dominance in the fields they used to be dominant in as the women holding those positions retired.

But hey I'm sure the prominence of women in arms manufacturing during the same timeframe disappearing after the war was also due to "discouragement" right?

[WolfpackN64]

Except it's not a gross misrepresentation, if you had actually been paying attention to the people pushing the We Need More Women in STEM narrative, or even just the greater Feminist movement for the past few years you'd know that. They are explicitly anti-white and anti-male, regarding masculinity and "whiteness" (whatever that's supposed to mean) as "toxic", and that somehow magically masculinity is preventing women from entering STEM.

The difference between the GSA, Curves, various Fraterrnal and Sorority organizations, and other gender discriminating organizations and something like Outreachy, is that the former aren't making claims towards "equality" or being "anti-discrimination", whereas Outreachy is trying to solve a Feminist lie by discriminating. Which makes them a hypocritical organization.

Now certainly some people here would be hypocritical in being fine with the aforementioned organizations but being against discrimination. However most aren't ready to challenge the notion that racism, sexism, etc discrimination is universally bad, as opposed to only being bad within particular contexts. There's plenty of discrimination that makes sense: bathrooms, gyms, dorms, scouting organizations, anything that supports the disabled, immigration policy (can't just let anyone in, we want the best and brightest after all), and so on. But one can hardly blame them when society has dictated it's the worst thing someone can be.

Those are positions you project onto these organizations. Feminist organizations come in many colors and sizes and most don't give a damn about "white male toxicity" or stuff like that. I don't know how you people manage to put organizations that are for female rights and empowerment in the camp of man-haters, for these are two things which only very seldomly overlap. At the end, you seem to be quite incapable to properly distinguish between negative and positive discrimination. The latter hurts no-one and Outreachy definitely falls in the latter camp.

[WolfpackN64]

No but you're the one getting all worked up on other people's opinion in an online forum. If anything you're just as bad as you think I am.

I don't think so.

[Luke_Wolf]

Those are positions you project onto these organizations. Feminist organizations come in many colors and sizes and most don't give a damn about "white male toxicity" or stuff like that. I don't know how you people manage to put organizations that are for female rights and empowerment in the camp of man-haters, for these are two things which only very seldomly overlap.

Feminism is basically defined as man hating and female supremacy. Reasonable "Feminists" like Christina Hoff Sommers and Camille Pagila are very much the black sheep in their communities. But you'd know that if you were paying any attention.

At the end, you seem to be quite incapable to properly distinguish between negative and positive discrimination. The latter hurts no-one and Outreachy definitely falls in the latter camp.

Does it though? does it really? Let's define this term "Positive discrimination", what we're really talking about is a set of discriminatory practices that are in favour of a particular group or classification. In other words Identitarian Cronyism. Which is harmful for 3 reasons. First it harms those practicing this form of cronyism by engaging in anti-meritocratic activities which results in a massively less qualified pool overall (in this case by removing the mass majority of the candidates). Second it harms qualified individuals not belonging to the particular identitarian group being discriminated in favour of. Finally both those in and outside the group will have a negative attitude towards those who were discriminated in favour of, of not having earned their place regardless of the truth of such an opinion.

The reality is "Positive" discrimination, and "Negative" discrimination are actually one and the same, the only difference is that in "Positive" discrimination, the path to hell is paved with good intentions rather than bad ones.

Meanwhile bathrooms, dorms, gyms, scouting, fraternal and sorority organizations, etc are neither positive nor negative discrimination, they are Segregative Discrimination because the goal of the discrimination is purely segregative rather than truly being in favour or against. Services for the disabled aren't really positive discrimination either because nobody is lowering the bar to bring in more disabled people. Instead the point of disability services for those who are actually functional is to push them up to meet the bar which is a whole other form of discrimination.

[WolfpackN64]

Feminism is basically defined as man hating and female supremacy. Reasonable "Feminists" like Christina Hoff Sommers and Camille Pagila are very much the black sheep in their communities. But you'd know that if you were paying any attention.



Does it though? does it really? Let's define this term "Positive discrimination", what we're really talking about is a set of discriminatory practices that are in favour of a particular group or classification. In other words Identitarian Cronyism. Which is harmful for 3 reasons. First it harms those practicing this form of cronyism by engaging in anti-meritocratic activities which results in a massively less qualified pool overall (in this case by removing the mass majority of the candidates). Second it harms qualified individuals not belonging to the particular identitarian group being discriminated in favour of. Finally both those in and outside the group will have a negative attitude towards those who were discriminated in favour of, of not having earned their place regardless of the truth of such an opinion.

The reality is "Positive" discrimination, and "Negative" discrimination are actually one and the same, the only difference is that in "Positive" discrimination, the path to hell is paved with good intentions rather than bad ones.

Meanwhile bathrooms, dorms, gyms, scouting, fraternal and sorority organizations, etc are neither positive nor negative discrimination, they are Segregative Discrimination because the goal of the discrimination is purely segregative rather than truly being in favour or against. Services for the disabled aren't really positive discrimination either because nobody is lowering the bar to bring in more disabled people. Instead the point of disability services for those who are actually functional is to push them up to meet the bar which is a whole other form of discrimination.

Harding your opinion doesn't make it right. Strengthening your own preconceived notions don't make them a fact. I'm just going to put your argument of feminism to the side.
As for your other opinion. Ideally these things would be structured meritocratically, but our society isn't meritocratic and our economic system even less. For you this is a lowering of the bar, which doesn't make much sense. If anything, Outreachy is about bringing in more people. GNOME isn't a cheap project, if these developers wouldn't be up to snuff, their work wouldn't be used, just like any GSoC applicant would.

[Luke_Wolf]

Harding your opinion doesn't make it right. Strengthening your own preconceived notions don't make them a fact. I'm just going to put your argument of feminism to the side.
As for your other opinion. Ideally these things would be structured meritocratically, but our society isn't meritocratic and our economic system even less.

The only reason the economic system isn't meritocratic is because of people like you who feel the need to interfere with it. Otherwise the economic system is actually entirely meritocratic. As to society, well I can't comment on Belgium, but the US is quite broadly meritocratic, anyone who puts in the hard work will rise according to their merits.

For you this is a lowering of the bar, which doesn't make much sense. If anything, Outreachy is about bringing in more people. GNOME isn't a cheap project, if these developers wouldn't be up to snuff, their work wouldn't be used, just like any GSoC applicant would.

Are you really going to defend that point when the last cycle produced a coloring book? A coloring book that was drawn by someone that's about as bad at art as I am. Outreachy's projects have broadly been about documentation projects such as that. While documentation efforts do have their place, don't tell me the bar isn't being lowered when equivocal organisations not engaging in discriminatory practices are broadly producing code instead, and especially not when it's producing coloring books that a software developer could have drawn.