New Group Calls For Boycotting Systemd

[rice_nine]

Too bad Lennart doesn't share this philosophy. His favorite word is WONTFIX.

Well, apparently he does. He must have decided init scripts are rotten beyond repair and thought about how to fix userspace. Or maybe someone else did and he agreed and got on it. I don't know, I wasn't there.

[blackiwid]

Even here are only people with perfect english supposed to be allowed to say something, I still try it once more.

I just dont get why this fight now starts. There was never a day X where Redhat forced every distro taht matters to use systemd.

So most distros one after another choose to use it, because it is better (better to maintain, more features), its so absurd to fight systemd as a whole thing, why not ONLY fight it BEFORE the distro u use things about to migrate to it?

And with fight I mean argue against it, and if your world depends on this one software stack, u start at the day the devs desite this against u to switch to another distro or more likely fork your distro with some others.

So why is this "fight" against systemd starting now after slowly one after another distro switched the war is already over but some think now its time to fight without any goal just to metaphoricly speaken kill a few more people in the process.

[Luke]

Web site integration not a likely goal of any init system

Just wait until the systemd facebook / twitter integration happens, then no arguments will be needed at all. I cant wait to read peoples twitter feed or facebook wall each time their machine sends an ACPI command or plugs in a USB stick.

Will be a decent way to finally obtain the number of Linux users I suppose

You can also tell how many Linux users are secretly guilty of unplugging before unmount. Only the classy *nix users will get to keep their pride haha.

I don't see wny anyone would integrate a web site into the boot time init system, the only possible advantage would be to a user setting that as a homepage in browser or having a phone/tablet start up directly to that app. Doing that at boot time would be touchy, requiring careful debugging so the whole boot process would not hang if the site in not reachable or the user chooses not to have an account there. For that matter a user needing to use the device to set up an account with a site would not want a chicken and egg scenario where the account is needed to boot the device but the device must be already booted to form the account. Thus facebook and twitter integration strike me as unlikely goals of systemd.

If I am wrong, of course, deleting the units would delete any such integration in my systems. For that matter, as someone else already explained, if I wanted a faster boot from cold to browser running on my usual set of tabs, a systemd unit with a timeout to allow exit in case of failure could be made in minutes to do it. It would have to depend on another systemd unit to find and make a wireless connection in my case, however. Again, all would have to fail gracefully so I could still boot and do these manually when routers don't want to connect, a site is under attack and can't be reached, etc.

If there ever is a website/systemd integration package, it would probably be an end user application that integrates well with systemd rather than the other way around. Hell, it could be even be written to work with any of the current init systems or for compatability with all of them.

[interested]

So why is this "fight" against systemd starting now after slowly one after another distro switched the war is already over but some think now its time to fight without any goal just to metaphoricly speaken kill a few more people in the process.

Well, some of the smartest systemd opponents are beginning to discover that all major Linux distros are changing to systemd, and therefore most, if not all, of the smaller derivative Linux distros will follow. There will be no more commercially backed Linux distros that doesn't run systemd, so no stable, long time supported, full Linux versions that uses anything but systemd.

At the moment only Slackware and Gentoo (and some even smaller derivatives) are among the few distros that haven't committed themselves to systemd. I have full respect for either distros way of doing things, but they won't please anybody; a very small, extremely conservative distro like Slackware, or a highly volatile, extremely configurable distro like Gentoo.

Slackware hasn't committed itself to what it will do in the future, but I find it likely that it will convert to systemd one day, it simply doesn't have the developer power to stay on its own.

Gentoo will probably use its own particular init system as default for a long time, but most users and developers will probably change to systemd support within a foreseeable future in order to have a fully functional deskop.

So the future for non-systemd Linux systems looks quite bleak at the moment. Some systemd opponents have realized this, and are now trying to make a final spurt attempt in order to derail the systemd progress by stepping up the attacks on systemd.

Even though negative campaigning have utterly failed to stop systemd's total victory and at present probably only strengthen the systemd side, they just keep on repeating this negative campaign.

But it is easy to write attacks on systemd on some forum, while doing anything constructive to actually help out the non-systemd distros and upstream projects, is hard work. So while only the latter would actually help the systemd opponents, they just keep on doing the wrong things that are easy to do.

[Auzy]

The founder of the website possibly barely knows how to code

Did a domain lookup for this site.. The only reference I could find for the owner of the domain was a racist software license (maybe not the same guy though), and a few minor bug reports (which imho, weren't written by a decent coder).

I couldn't find any software projects he has contributed code to either..

I'm relatively sure that the guy who founded this site, simply Googled a few links and probably has only minimal understanding of his arguments. That being said, I'd say we should welcome Billy Estes to do a lecture on why Systemd allegedly sucks (I for one, would go just for the hilarity during question time)

[gens]

Well, some of the smartest systemd opponents are beginning to discover that all major Linux distros are changing to systemd, and therefore most, if not all, of the smaller derivative Linux distros will follow. There will be no more commercially backed Linux distros that doesn't run systemd, so no stable, long time supported, full Linux versions that uses anything but systemd.

At the moment only Slackware and Gentoo (and some even smaller derivatives) are among the few distros that haven't committed themselves to systemd. I have full respect for either distros way of doing things, but they won't please anybody; a very small, extremely conservative distro like Slackware, or a highly volatile, extremely configurable distro like Gentoo.

Slackware hasn't committed itself to what it will do in the future, but I find it likely that it will convert to systemd one day, it simply doesn't have the developer power to stay on its own.

Gentoo will probably use its own particular init system as default for a long time, but most users and developers will probably change to systemd support within a foreseeable future in order to have a fully functional deskop.

So the future for non-systemd Linux systems looks quite bleak at the moment. Some systemd opponents have realized this, and are now trying to make a final spurt attempt in order to derail the systemd progress by stepping up the attacks on systemd.

Even though negative campaigning have utterly failed to stop systemd's total victory and at present probably only strengthen the systemd side, they just keep on repeating this negative campaign.

But it is easy to write attacks on systemd on some forum, while doing anything constructive to actually help out the non-systemd distros and upstream projects, is hard work. So while only the latter would actually help the systemd opponents, they just keep on doing the wrong things that are easy to do.

please do not predict the future
and please do not label people that don't blindly follow propaganda as "not smart"
more over if you count you will see that people against systemd are usually more experienced and knowledgeable then systemd fan-boys

please do not mislead people by stating your opinion as a fact
ty

PS never ever say slackware will switch, it won't

[MartinN]

PS never ever say slackware will switch, it won't

How do you know it will -never- switch?

[blackiwid]

please do not predict the future
and please do not label people that don't blindly follow propaganda as "not smart"

It has nothing to do with propaganda, u use words like you would be actually in a war with redhat, like u hate them for trying to trap us in a deathtrap or something like that.

For 99% of all linux users the init system does not matter that much, its no religionous war. It has some jobs to do, all of them do the basic stuff. People lived with pretty big garbage 20-30 years (before even upstart was created by ubuntu and some other systems) that made init system first ready for linux as a desktop. Dependency loadable services and stuff plug-and-play or hotplugging and such stuff.

So I am pretty shure that systemd haters know much about init systems but again most people dont care because there is no reason to care.

But even as this desktop only user systemd has advantages, especialy for them I would even say. As example the init scripts that are distro independend lead even today that there are as example for mpd and deluge there are good init scripts even packaged into the distro packages.

For ubuntu there was no such stuff, there was some scripts that u could copy and paste from a website that worked maybe for lts version X but not for version X+1.

But again even if ignore that. lets say its for the normal users it does not matter at all if he uses taht or soemthing else. There are the distromakers, the maintainers they have less work using systemd because they have the same code base, a fix for distro 1 can be directly copied for another. And writing init config files is easier and also takes less time. In this free time they can do something else to make their distro better or to help upstream.

So the distro makers are happy and 99% of the users are. Why would anybody care about some people like you?

Because its a conspiracy from evil redhat, when you find real proof of that and we see first signes of that the next day the project gets forked, or maybe switched to one of this old things if they managed to place many nearly unfixable antifeatures into the code while hundrets of people having eyes on the code.

There are 2 points, the major is, are u the maintainer of that distro do you do the work to create this distro, and after that a bit the users matters and even there we have 99% or maybe only 95% dont want to fight over numbers, who dont care or are even pretty happy about the distro switching to systemd.

So if you dont create a distro or fork one as example sysvbuntu or something like that. and u cant win the majority of the users against this "propaganda" u maybe win a argument because u can talk better or something like that. But in the distro nothing will change into your favor.

[interested]

please do not predict the future

It is called analysing the situation. It is something the systemd opponents have sorely neglected to do. This is why you now are experiencing a systemd tsunami without having any contingency plan.

and please do not label people that don't blindly follow propaganda as "not smart"
more over if you count you will see that people against systemd are usually more experienced and knowledgeable then systemd fan-boys

Dream on. The systemd opponents are in fact a small minority, almost totally unable to gather the necessary developers needed to make a Linux distro have a functional DE. Where is the ConsoleKit replacement that upstream projects have practically begged you to make for years?

Too many systemd opponents shows a sad lack of comprehension of the serious challenges non-systemd Linux distros are facing the coming years. The current trend seems to be daydreaming that "systemd is just a fad that quickly will pass".

The tactic of flash mobbing systemd threads on forums and performing a negative campaign against systemd, have made you all think you where more people than you really are. But you are not that many when heads are counted, which is why distro after distro have switched to systemd.

PS never ever say slackware will switch, it won't

Patrick Volkerding have clearly stated that he is undecided on the matter, please show a single quote of him pledging never to switch to systemd!

He may prefer other init systems than systemd, and may even be critical of systemd, but if no alternative non-systemd development eco-system appears soon, he will be forced to switch to systemd in order to have a working distro. Slackware is simply a to small distro to make up for all the lacking work needed to be done in the future.

And let me hammer this last point in with a sledgehammer; Yes, there is a lot of work to be done, on every level, from low level system work like dealing with the upcoming udev/kdbus change, to "middleware" like ConsoleKit, dbus, cgroups etc, to high level DE stuf, like feeding patches to upstream DE's so they can support non-systemd Linux distros.

[gens]

And let me hammer this last point in with a sledgehammer; Yes, there is a lot of work to be done, on every level, from low level system work like dealing with the upcoming udev/kdbus change, to "middleware" like ConsoleKit, dbus, cgroups etc, to high level DE stuf, like feeding patches to upstream DE's so they can support non-systemd Linux distros.

i do like sledgehammers, used them a lot
only problem is that your hands get shaky after having fun for a while

but that work that you talk of, well..

console-kit works without pid eins, it is logind that you are talking of
afaik there is a project for that

kdbus is planed to be required by udev for firmware loading, and nothing else
thing is that right now the kernel loads firmware itself
problem being that the mechanism for that does not allow for out of tree firmware (like laptop things and idk)
thing is udev is actually fairly simple
the system before udev was hotplug, and udev still uses the hotplug interface to get device remove/add/idk events
(and procfs to get devices, check out proc and hotplug in the kernel documentation)
also eudev

cgroups are completely independent of systemd
always have been
made by other people for a completely different application
they work with anything
it is systemd that has problems working inside them, that they are fixing

as for DE's
afaik all major DE's except GNOME will accept patches
also isn't that just the logind part ?

anyway
please do not call out people as not being smart enough to understand and in need of being enlightened to the one truth
we are all grown ups here


PS arrow of time, something actually interesting