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  • #31
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post

    Indeed. This is one of those messy layers that I mentioned. FreeBSD takes the approach of borrowing parts of Linux relating to Xorg. It doesn't always work well; for example it breaks a lot of userland (xset m doesn't work to set mouse accel for example to use libinput). Likewise they have tried hald and all that other Linux crud. The entire Linux KPI stuff to borrow GPU drivers is clever but in the long run it is messy. For a while, FreeBSD's Xorg even needed dbus or some hacks to xorg.conf. Ugly.

    Once Linux is out of the Xorg picture (migrated to Wayland), FreeBSD should clean itself up.

    Additionally, if you look on ports.freebsd.org and look at the list of dependencies that xorg (and also xorg-minimal) pulls in; this is pretty grim and hopefully will also resolve itself once Xorg no longer needs to support Linux. Compare this to Xenocara and you can see some real elegance behind a central / tailor fit implementation. (Obviously the only real problem is it lags behind which could pose a problem for a small subset of users).
    That was my impression as well. OpenBSD made the right (and hard) choice with Xenocara, instead of transmogrifying their OS to plainly facilitate running Xorg which is predominantly maintained by Linux developers for Linux distributions. Although certain distributions already default to using Wayland, I certainly don't expect Linux to really drop support for X11, at least not in the next decade or so. They have both Wayland and X11 which is more than users can ask for. As for freebsd, I don't really know what they intend to do about it considering they already put in the work to support Wayland. The OpenBSD project definitely seems more clear focused here by supporting one thing well.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post

      Except.... x.org is broken in many ways. A codebase deemed hardly maintainable, nulling any further progress.
      The goal of these updates and refactoring is to improve this situation. A lot of X code has simply been removed.

      problems with hotplugging displays,
      Never had that. I switch between dock & laptop eDP all the time.

      problems with tearing,
      Huh, there's that tearfree option now for both ddx and modesetting drivers.

      security unknown for bigger parts of it.
      You can disable xhost, xdcmp etc.

      Even the praised X11 forwarding is slow and inefficient as hell. Yes, it works on broadband low latency links, but fear any lesser connection....
      You can use NX, VNC, RDP whatever. Stupid trolling..

      Wayland guys should focus on fixing their shite. Not all wayland desktops support color profiles or 10bit color channels. I tested Arch Linux, NVIDIA proprietary drivers + GNOME just few days ago. Guess what - does not use Wayland, at least by default. I can't even select that option in gdm. What if I want multiple seats. E.g. Kodi + iGPU + pulse eight adapter for movie playback, Nvidia for Steam & games. Does not work on Wayland. Gdm can't even log in if you need that.

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      • #33
        Could someone please direct me to a tutorial or 'crib sheet' that provides details on how to convert code that uses Xlib to using Wayland API or series of supporting libraries.

        Ideally the tutorial/'crib sheet' should cover all Xlib methods as it's the less well used ones that are proving difficult to replace.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by caligula View Post
          Wayland guys should focus on fixing their shite.
          wayland guys are busy fixing xorg, you know, with wayland.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by caligula View Post
            You can use NX, VNC, RDP whatever. Stupid trolling..
            Not stupid trolling. You're misunderstanding the context. A lot of X11 apologists used to bring up that X is network transparent while Wayland isn't. Truth is that using X over a network has never been great and doesn't just work with a lot of clients.

            Originally posted by caligula View Post
            Wayland guys should focus on fixing their shite.
            The Wayland devs are focused on that and X11 apologists hate them for it because it means they're not working on Xorg.

            Originally posted by caligula View Post
            Not all wayland desktops support color profiles or 10bit color channels. I tested Arch Linux, NVIDIA proprietary drivers + GNOME just few days ago. Guess what - does not use Wayland, at least by default. I can't even select that option in gdm.
            Things used to have Wayland disabled on the Nvidia proprietary drivers back before the Nvidia started support DMA-buf and GBM. Now that's not the case anymore. Gnome's Wayland sessions works pretty well on Nvidia's proprietary drivers now.

            Originally posted by caligula View Post
            What if I want multiple seats. E.g. Kodi + iGPU + pulse eight adapter for movie playback, Nvidia for Steam & games. Does not work on Wayland. Gdm can't even log in if you need that.
            I never messed with it but I'm pretty sure Wayland does support multiple seats.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by dreich View Post
              Although certain distributions already default to using Wayland, I certainly don't expect Linux to really drop support for X11, at least not in the next decade or so.
              Possibly not. Nothing with Wayland has really moved very fast admittedly. Perhaps the first hints are when Red Hat stops providing the Xorg server in their fairly restricted repos. It will free up a lot of work for them and with a lack of inclusion of systemd-networkd they have proven to be quite opinionated in their choices and are the most likely to be the first to do this.

              Originally posted by dreich View Post
              They have both Wayland and X11 which is more than users can ask for. As for freebsd, I don't really know what they intend to do about it.
              From what I see, I get the feeling that FreeBSD is going to try to cling on to Linux and be pulled along with Wayland. They already have a number of working compositors. Due to the design of Wayland, there will never be that many compositors anyway, so it is very feasible.
              I think this is probably more realistic than them severing ties and jumping onto Xenocara. Both will probably appear in their ports collection, which is not a bad thing.
              ‚Äč

              Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
              used to bring up that X is network transparent while Wayland isn't. Truth is that using X over a network has never been great and doesn't just work with a lot of clients.
              Inefficient toolkits like Gtk2+ and Qt 3+ did spoil the solution but the classics such as Xaw and Motif which correctly utilize the X11 protocol (and don't send entire rasters) are completely unbeatable even by Microsoft's RDP and widget toolkit (sadly the current king I believe).

              The disadvantage is they look "of an acquired taste" of course
              Last edited by kpedersen; 06 December 2022, 06:02 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

                It's so boring repeating all of this. Wayland is not getting a screensharing protocol. X11 doesn't have one either, it has a security flaw that can be exploited to do screensharing. Wayland does not have that same flaw. You can still do screensharing in Wayland by using xdg-desktop-portals which work with both Wayland and X11 so it has the benefit that clients that record or share the screen/windows don't have to implement the feature twice.
                That's you wayland fans decided that this is security flaw. It is a feature you decided to name a security flaw - to sell your crap to companies like RH. In our times mentioning security means a lot for all sorts of managers - and that is what you wayland guys are really good at. Bad programming, bad design - but good marketing. if you think this is a security flaw - come on man, I a using X and it has the secuty flaw. Hack my laptop - prove it. Mas-hack all BSD , Soaris, AIX etc boxes - they all do not use your stupid wayland but running this "open door X11" with a flaw you guys know and can use.

                It is always a pain when the technology is delivered by salesmen not engineers.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by asriel View Post
                  That's you wayland fans decided that this is security flaw. It is a feature you decided to name a security flaw
                  "This security flaw was by-design which means it can't be a security flaw anymore."

                  What a fuckin stupid argument lol
                  Last edited by Myownfriend; 07 December 2022, 01:02 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

                    Not stupid trolling. You're misunderstanding the context. A lot of X11 apologists used to bring up that X is network transparent while Wayland isn't. Truth is that using X over a network has never been great and doesn't just work with a lot of clients.
                    I'm aware of the limitations, especially with modern toolkits, but I've also experienced many happy moments using remote X apps via SSH. I know they waste bandwidth, but they used to be super easy to set up. The only apps that categorically didn't work were the Gnome/KDE apps that assumed some kind of active desktop session.

                    Things used to have Wayland disabled on the Nvidia proprietary drivers back before the Nvidia started support DMA-buf and GBM. Now that's not the case anymore. Gnome's Wayland sessions works pretty well on Nvidia's proprietary drivers now.
                    But somehow the default install of Arch, Nvidia, and Gnome didn't launch Wayland. It might support it, but it wasn't even available in GDM as an option. I can see both options when I use Intel/AMD GPUs.

                    I never messed with it but I'm pretty sure Wayland does support multiple seats.
                    Wayland might, but the implementations don't. E.g. GDM just crashes.

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