KDE Server Decoration Protocol Proposed For Wayland-Protocols

[RealNC]

You mean "the The GNU's Not Unix's Image Manipualtion Program's Toolkit tool-it"?

You mean the The GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix GNU's Not Unix...

[cipri]

I don't see wayland becoming an important part of the linux world. If nothing better than wayland will emerge, my best quess is, that the linux desktop will loose marketshare and something else will come up. I have spent enough time with wayland, since i was working on building a new modern gui framework based on wayland, and i had to notice, that it's not the future. I guess this explains why after so many years, wayland is still not with well supported by major distributions.

[Azrael5]

krita will be developed by wayland standard?

[Steffo]

I have spent enough time with wayland, since i was working on building a new modern gui framework based on wayland, and i had to notice, that it's not the future.

Why is it not the future?

[Delgarde]

I guess this explains why after so many years, wayland is still not with well supported by major distributions.

It's been the default on Fedora for several releases now, and is the default on Ubuntu as of the current release. Do you have any other major distributions in mind, if not those two?

[cipri]

It's been the default on Fedora for several releases now, and is the default on Ubuntu as of the current release. Do you have any other major distributions in mind, if not those two?

I have major distributions where it works buggy, it seems to run fine for a time till the bugs appear! I have used wayland from the beginning on fedora, and now I'm back on X with considerable less troubles. One might think: it needs time to stabilize. How old is Wayland? about 7-10 years? It has a very good reason why it took so much. Because it has horrible design based on C. Check out how difficult it is to make a none-trivial wayland client (multiple windows, and multiple threads all in c++)! Notice how horrible code you have to write for example in c++ to be able to hide the shit of wayland. Check out the official documentation of wayland and notice how uncomplete it is. Based on the official documentation you can not write any wayland server or client, or anything. Not only this, but it even looks like you MUST link against libwayland-client to be able to have vulkan working (ABI compatibility). If a library forces you to use everywhere reinterpret_cast and global variables, then it's right place is in the garbage. Why do you think that KDE and Gnome struggle with Wayland for so many years? Because it's horrible. So much accumulation of unsafe code, and Gnome continues in this tradition, and the result can be in long term just a bad one.
My advice to everybody is to stop building that much upon unsafe code. This will cost you later a lot of trouble and effort find bugs and maintain the code. And not to forget QT, also horrible, if you pay attention to the detail.
Who are the main developers of wayland? The old guys that were working on X ! Great, the guys that think that C is the greatest language on planet are trying make come up with something great and revolutionary... sorry, i had this illusion too till in came in very close working contact with wayland code.

Here is a nice article about gorgeous C

https://medium.com/message/everything-is-broken-81e5f33a24e1

cipri

[deve]

I have major distributions where it works buggy, it seems to run fine for a time till the bugs appear! I have used wayland from the beginning on fedora, and now I'm back on X with considerable less troubles. One might think: it needs time to stabilize. How old is Wayland? about 7-10 years? It has a very good reason why it took so much. Because it has horrible design based on C. Check out how difficult it is to make a none-trivial wayland client (multiple windows, and multiple threads all in c++)! Notice how horrible code you have to write for example in c++ to be able to hide the shit of wayland. Check out the official documentation of wayland and notice how uncomplete it is. Based on the official documentation you can not write any wayland server or client, or anything. Not only this, but it even looks like you MUST link against libwayland-client to be able to have vulkan working (ABI compatibility). If a library forces you to use everywhere reinterpret_cast and global variables, then it's right place is in the garbage. Why do you think that KDE and Gnome struggle with Wayland for so many years? Because it's horrible. So much accumulation of unsafe code, and Gnome continues in this tradition, and the result can be in long term just a bad one.
My advice to everybody is to stop building that much upon unsafe code. This will cost you later a lot of trouble and effort find bugs and maintain the code. And not to forget QT, also horrible, if you pay attention to the detail.
Who are the main developers of wayland? The old guys that were working on X ! Great, the guys that think that C is the greatest language on planet are trying make come up with something great and revolutionary... sorry, i had this illusion too till in came in very close working contact with wayland code.

Here is a nice article about gorgeous C

https://medium.com/message/everything-is-broken-81e5f33a24e1

cipri

I'm working on Wayland support in Supertuxkart and for me it's much more comfortable to work than X11. And compare CIrrDeviceLinux.cpp is 3170 lines of code while CIrrDeviceWayland.cpp is 1413. The only "uncomfortable" thing is that I have to draw decorations myself and I have no idea why I should care about it when I'm developing a game. Actually I don't want to do it, because it will be ugly :-P

[leipero]

You mean "the The GNU Image Manipulation Program Toolkit tool-kit"?

[addsfueltothefire]
He ment, 'the "The GNU Image Manipulation Program Toolkit tool-kit"'?
[/addsfueltothefire]

[kaprikawn]

I don't see wayland becoming an important part of the linux world...

Then you're not paying attention. Everything is migrating towards Wayland. Yes, it's taken a lot longer than expected. But it's inevitable. If you're happy with X, great, I'm happy for you. I use Gnome, which has the most mature Wayland support out there, and I usually boot into X. But I know that the days that I do that are numbered. X is crap and Wayland is the future. It isn't there yet, but it's getting better all the time.

You point out how long it's taken Wayland to get off the ground. Yet devs are still working on it. Every release of KDE, Gnome and a bunch of other DEs have 'improved Wayland support' in their release notes. If Wayland was to become abandonware, it would have already become that by now. I know X isn't going away anytime soon, and I know that in some areas Wayland doesn't offer replacements for stuff that works well on X. But at this point is a question of when Wayland overtakes X, not if.

Oh, and lose is spelt with one 'o', I just point that out because it's a particular bug bear of mine.

[cipri]

" X is crap and Wayland is the future."
You want to bet on that? I can bet that X will out-live wayland. Of course X is not the future, but as soon as something far better than wayland appears, wayland can become obsolete very soon. The reason that wayland seems to have a future is because there is nothing else to compete with it, since no real professionals want to replace x and wayland. I bet google is very happy that wayland/linux is bad as a desktop. Apple the same. But if somebody appears with something great, easy to use, safe code, easy to maintain and to extend, then the days of wayland are counted. I already have my nice own cross platform GUI Framework (far from complete) which is such a pleasure to use (Vulkan as rendering backend, and XCB as windowing system).
I will wait at most one more year, and see how Fuchsia OS (google) develops, and if i notice it's indeed the future, I will switch to Fuchsia. If not, then I will write my own wayland replacement (compositor and client). One might think: this is a lot of work: Not that much if you have good design. For example check out the code of XBoard (chess), and you will see how many lines of code it has, how complex it is to read and to understand. Then check out similar projects written in c++ or java, and you'll see that it's nothing special/hard.
cipri