Valve's Dota 2 Game Can (Still) Run Natively On Mir

[Ancurio]

It's kinda strange that in a world where PulseAudio, raw ALSA, OSS, Jack and more are equally supported via OpenAL and co., choice of display server is so frowned upon. If the Mir devs want their display server to be supported in toolkits / FOSS drivers, they should do the work, but the fact that patches have been outright refused is very unFOSS like.

[blackiwid]

It's kinda strange that in a world where PulseAudio, raw ALSA, OSS, Jack and more are equally supported via OpenAL and co., choice of display server is so frowned upon. If the Mir devs want their display server to be supported in toolkits / FOSS drivers, they should do the work, but the fact that patches have been outright refused is very unFOSS like.

lets think a world where 50% of the users used in linux xserver and other 50% a ubuntu-only-x-server, they could not even handle managing one xserver having only 50-70% of the resources is just egnomanic and hurting the ecosystem, linux is not about maximum concurency its about working together, the hole opensource thing goes about working together and have no single-company resolution, what does opensource bring much if you dont care about freedom and shit but only practical advantages, if only one company ever will touch this software.

it just makes less sense, and its a way to try to keep some work exclusive to you, and with that conditions you sign if you help there out canonical keeps control over it, so its a game to getting a advantage with some tricks over competitors.

And even before that happend ubuntu was way to dominant, so I hope that that will break their dominance for me it already did, what do I mean, special amddrivers specila ubuntu AMD beta drivers. Or Firefox only for ubuntu because nobody cares when mozilla fights debian and so on.

But this is even worse... beeing "pragmatic" and have no balls is one thing, but splitting (WITH NO REAL REASONS THAT COULD NOT BEEN FALSIFIED) the grafical stack of linux is just retarded. its more or less the next important thing in linux after the kernel.

So if ubuntu would have forked the kernel all would be cool too, of course its impossible for this amateurs even for redhat it would be (nearly) imposible, whatever its their desition and their deathwish, I dont want to talk to much about it anymore, the point is that there is no reason for valve to support MIR, its userbase is no argument, because the majority of users will use steamos because its preinstalled if they have to depend on the current small usersbases of linux, steamos is dead. When that happens, jeah maybe after that to keep that client alive its ok to support ubuntu so the current ports can there still be played, new ports will then not come much anymore.

[Cerberus]

It's kinda strange that in a world where PulseAudio, raw ALSA, OSS, Jack and more are equally supported via OpenAL and co., choice of display server is so frowned upon. If the Mir devs want their display server to be supported in toolkits / FOSS drivers, they should do the work, but the fact that patches have been outright refused is very unFOSS like.

Exactly, GTK accepted Mir backend (disabled by default since it is experimental code) and I believe SDL, some others frown upon it, yet nearly everyone accepted systemd which is not without its critics, and there are several init choices, why another display server is such a big issue I dont know but I dont believe in the technical reasons to refuse patches, as for Canonical's CLA rest of Linux ecosystem is hardly all super FOSS, nobody has issues using Flash, firmware drivers and mp3 codecs but Mir gets to be blamed for its CLA, people can say what they want but Mir is getting too much hate, because it supposedly fragments Linux and because of its CLA, we can have multiple audio backends, multiple init systems and multiple who knows what but multiple display servers is a big no no it seems.

[Cerberus]

lets think a world where 50% of the users used in linux xserver and other 50% a ubuntu-only-x-server, they could not even handle managing one xserver having only 50-70% of the resources is just egnomanic and hurting the ecosystem, linux is not about maximum concurency its about working together, the hole opensource thing goes about working together and have no single-company resolution, what does opensource bring much if you dont care about freedom and shit but only practical advantages, if only one company ever will touch this software.

Last time I checked Mir was open source with GPLv3 license and could be forked by anyone, yes it has CLA but it is hardly closed source proprietary piece of software. As for forced changes in Linux, systemd and Gnome 3 are good examples of what gets forced on users and not all users accepted it. Linux ecosystem is hardly all sunshine and rainbows.

[stiiixy]

Meh, I wish they just went with Wayland instead of Mir.

Maybe they could port Unity to Wayland?

Yeah. This Mir thing seems a complete waste of fucking time more and more. I'm simply an observer so grain and salts. With Valve on board for Linux, diverting resources form all projects to supporting Mir at a time when resources are needed to try and get a solid foundation and working next-gen graphics stack in the first place, it's making linux a laughing stock surely? We get this divergence that wasn't even necessary, with the original reason's for such an act being 'not developed here' syndrome and trying to get something done because Wayland wasn't developing fast enough?

Maybe Canonical should hire Lennart Poeterring. At least shit would happen whether you like it or not.

[Cerberus]

Maybe Canonical should hire Lennart Poeterring. At least shit would happen whether you like it or not.

Good idea, when he does something you cant escape from it

[blackiwid]

Last time I checked Mir was open source with GPLv3 license and could be forked by anyone, yes it has CLA but it is hardly closed source proprietary piece of software. As for forced changes in Linux, systemd and Gnome 3 are good examples of what gets forced on users and not all users accepted it. Linux ecosystem is hardly all sunshine and rainbows.

where is gnome 3 forced to anybody in any way? Sorry I must be living in a different world than u, systemd on the other hand is only forced because nobody fixed that kaputt init systems and logsystems that was absolutly unusable and buggy and slow before lennard fixed it, same with pulseaudio btw, before it with most drivers you could not even mix 2 audio streams so you could only listen to one sound at a time. BTW why nobody bitches about people got forced into cups, maybe some "forcing" (in nobody else cares to develop a alternative) would be good for people.

ONE printer framework for everybody did hurt nobody, the opposite is true, its one strong arguemnt for linux that printing is not totaly broken like in windows.

Yes Mir is free, thats not the main problem, still their only goal is to control it, not everything thats free is good, its more like you cant hide evil if you release it free where everybody can see the sourcecode. As example rms also said that ubuntu is evil because they included spyware, it was gpl spyware, but that does not automaticly make it a good thing.

[Cerberus]

where is gnome 3 forced to anybody in any way? Sorry I must be living in a different world than u, systemd on the other hand is only forced because nobody fixed that kaputt init systems and logsystems that was absolutly unusable and buggy and slow before lennard fixed it, same with pulseaudio btw, before it with most drivers you could not even mix 2 audio streams so you could only listen to one sound at a time. BTW why nobody bitches about people got forced into cups, maybe some "forcing" (in nobody else cares to develop a alternative) would be good for people.

ONE printer framework for everybody did hurt nobody, the opposite is true, its one strong arguemnt for linux that printing is not totaly broken like in windows.

Yes Mir is free, thats not the main problem, still their only goal is to control it, not everything thats free is good, its more like you cant hide evil if you release it free where everybody can see the sourcecode. As example rms also said that ubuntu is evil because they included spyware, it was gpl spyware, but that does not automaticly make it a good thing.

Where is Mir forced on anybody? Nowhere, it will be used by Ubuntu only and no one else for now, and it will still allow for installation of X.org (dont know whether Wayland will be available), and yet people bitch all the time about it, is anyone forcing Mir on them? No. Only Ubuntu users will be "forced" to use it. Systemd in comparison was forced on many when it became default on many distributions, and many dont like it (just read all the flame wars about systemd). So if Mir is not forced on anybody except on its source distribution why some users of other distributions bitch so much about it? Their distribution, their choice, they have the right to do whatever they want with it, others will use Wayland and thats it. I dont like some things on other distributions but I dont bitch about it, I simply dont use them. So what if they didnt invest those resources into Wayland, they never invested resources in the X.org either and no one complained much about it, they are a company and companies have their own goals.

RMS is fanatic, if it were for him Linux desktop would be unusable as half of hardware wouldnt work without proprietary firmwares and drivers, we would not be able to run most of the multimedia etc. That is not something majority of people want. Idealism is nice but when it interferes with stuff people want to do on their computers then it gets in the way.

Dash online results can be switched off with a single click, people bitch about that too even though Google, Facebook and their smartphones take away much more privacy from them and you cant even turn some things off if you want your smartphone to work properly. Thats just hypocrisy, we cant do anything about Google and Facebook so lets bitch against Canonical for trying to make a few bucks through online search which is afaik anonymized. What I am trying to say is that some people keep beating a dead horse with those criticisms, Mir will happen, deal with it people, that attitude ruins every discussion where someone mentions Mir, or systemd lately, the whole topic ends up in useless debates over the same thing over and over.

[dh04000]

Where is Mir forced on anybody? Nowhere, it will be used by Ubuntu only and no one else for now, and it will still allow for installation of X.org (dont know whether Wayland will be available), and yet people bitch all the time about it, is anyone forcing Mir on them? No. Only Ubuntu users will be "forced" to use it. Systemd in comparison was forced on many when it became default on many distributions, and many dont like it (just read all the flame wars about systemd). So if Mir is not forced on anybody except on its source distribution why some users of other distributions bitch so much about it? Their distribution, their choice, they have the right to do whatever they want with it, others will use Wayland and thats it. I dont like some things on other distributions but I dont bitch about it, I simply dont use them. So what if they didnt invest those resources into Wayland, they never invested resources in the X.org either and no one complained much about it, they are a company and companies have their own goals.

RMS is fanatic, if it were for him Linux desktop would be unusable as half of hardware wouldnt work without proprietary firmwares and drivers, we would not be able to run most of the multimedia etc. That is not something majority of people want. Idealism is nice but when it interferes with stuff people want to do on their computers then it gets in the way.

Dash online results can be switched off with a single click, people bitch about that too even though Google, Facebook and their smartphones take away much more privacy from them and you cant even turn some things off if you want your smartphone to work properly. Thats just hypocrisy, we cant do anything about Google and Facebook so lets bitch against Canonical for trying to make a few bucks through online search which is afaik anonymized. What I am trying to say is that some people keep beating a dead horse with those criticisms, Mir will happen, deal with it people, that attitude ruins every discussion where someone mentions Mir, or systemd lately, the whole topic ends up in useless debates over the same thing over and over.

Thank you for writing such a well thought-out piece. Too bad it will be buried by the garbage posts that follows it..... But +1 for you!

Now here comes some more moronix-quality posts. Here, I'll kick it off. "Ubuntu, more like smell-buntu AM I rite?" & "systemD, more like Poettering takes multiple D! AM I rite?"

[Awesomeness]

Mir is somewhat of an persona non grata at the moment in the Linux community because it supposedly fragments Linux, not that Linux isnt fragmented already in many ways

No, that is not the main reason.

Because if solution 1 is better than solution 2 you need to offer solution 1 to your users as an option, if you refuse to do that you are refusing on purely "political" grounds, something that should not have place in the open source community.

The free software movement is a political movement. That's a fact. Deal with it.

Mir's sole reason for existence is putting Canonical is a monopoly position through Mir's CLA. The CLA is a political weapon.
For that reason Unity, LightDM, etc. also do not support running on Wayland.

Mir incorporates lots of Apache-licensed Android code. If Mir was about technological pragmatism, why not use the Apache License for everything?

Sure they can use Wayland but if Mir performs better most will want the thing that gives them more performance.

Canonical's public front was that Mir supports Android drivers and Wayland does not. That is obviously wrong.
Not only does SailfishOS achieve the same thing using Wayland, it achieved it earlier.
And what Canonical was dishonest about is that Mir's hailed Android driver compatibility comes through libhybris which was written by Jolla primarily for Wayland.