Originally posted by Weasel
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Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostYeah, fuck people that actually wanted to game with no cheaters right?
Report what? The guy could just be "super leet" and "owning" all those noobs. Noobs report good players all the time (which don't cheat) so it's not like they can take them seriously, especially if they got an anti-cheat.
"There's no cheaters cause we got the anti-cheat man. It's just (the actual cheater) being good!" is the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is worse than "this game has no anti-cheat it's full of cheaters wtf" because it boosts the ego of the cheaters: they know they got away with it, and they get praised for having leet skillz.
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Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostGraphics-related is easier as DX interface is documented, and in a multiplayer game that's the only thing you care about. RNG Rewards, player accounts and enemy RNG happen server-side so you can't touch them from a compromised client.
If you load any DLL or similar, it can scan for relevant modules and hijack the memory directly. Of "graphics DLLs", of the game's code itself, of everything. As far as the CPU is concerned, that's the game's code right there doing all of this (same address space so...) so if the game has access to it, then a DLL has access to it.
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Originally posted by Weasel View PostNo cheaters means ZERO, not "less", but ZERO. That's the problem with anti-cheat: it gives people a false sense of impression that there are no cheaters.
Sometimes they encounter one, and it's just a matter of ragequitting and finding another lobby/team/whatever, and they have a high chance of not finding another for a while.
Games that lack such measures tend to become cheatfests pretty quick, and most players stop going in "public" matches at all pretty quick.
Report what? The guy could just be "super leet" and "owning" all those noobs. Noobs report good players all the time (which don't cheat) so it's not like they can take them seriously, especially if they got an anti-cheat.
And again you have to accept that you can't really catch everyone.
This is worse than "this game has no anti-cheat it's full of cheaters wtf" because it boosts the ego of the cheaters: they know they got away with it, and they get praised for having leet skillz.
Why the fuck all your "reasoning" is always some insane emotional nonsense? Let some "ceeki breeki slav squat rush B" minority wank on their 1337ness and let the majority play undisturbed. That's the best thing you can realistically do without resorting to draconian self-destructing locked-down gaming systems that make current game consoles look like OpenHardware.
Anything that runs in the same address space can hijack the graphics interface and hook it, I still don't get why you think it has to be a "graphics related" hijack directly, as if scanning modules and their import tables is hard... which is what the good "trainers" do.
Trainers should theoretically be impossible on a multiplayer game, but I know not all games actually do it right. Warfarm for example was doing the RNG rolls for enemy spawns and for mission/loot rewards in the client a few years ago, until they migrated that (and the drop tables) in the server component. That's... kind of bad, you know.
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Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostWho cares about boosting the ego of a small minority if the large majority of players can actually play without cheaters in their current match?
Why the fuck all your "reasoning" is always some insane emotional nonsense? Let some "ceeki breeki slav squat rush B" minority wank on their 1337ness and let the majority play undisturbed. That's the best thing you can realistically do without resorting to draconian self-destructing locked-down gaming systems that make current game consoles look like OpenHardware.
Sorry but I don't treat players as just numbers or statistics. In fact you don't even know if the "large majority" play without cheaters in their current match. You just assume that the ones that are good (supposedly) do so with merit instead of cheating, because well you got your anti-cheat up, and clearly a minority are "cheating".
I also never said that disabling anti-cheat is the final solution. It's better to have no anti-cheat, but it's far from ideal. Best is to redesign the game so that such cheats have less impact.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostNo, I meant that to actually know what is going on in-game for a realtime cheat program like aimbots and through-walls-scanners you need to intercept graphics calls, as there is the information about where stuff is in-game.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostTrainers should theoretically be impossible on a multiplayer game, but I know not all games actually do it right. Warfarm for example was doing the RNG rolls for enemy spawns and for mission/loot rewards in the client a few years ago, until they migrated that (and the drop tables) in the server component. That's... kind of bad, you know.
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Originally posted by mike44 View PostNever heard of such. How would you do that?
Originally posted by Weasel View PostBut *any* DLL can do that.
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Originally posted by V1tol View PostYes, you can do that from any DLL, byut you will have to write some loader code to find and replace original function with hacked one. And that can be detected pretty easily. For example, wallhack for CS1.5 was called simply opengl.dll and was loaded by the game. You didn't have to write any loader code - just override some methods.
I mean, yeah it's a bit harder to code (well, any non-trivial cheat is not too easy to code) but you guys are missing the point entirely. You think every cheater codes his own tools or what?
99% of cheaters (those that starshipeleven speaks about that an anti-cheat is effective against) just download the cheat tool or anti-cheat bypass or whatever. If the anti-cheat is strong enough, that's actually worse because then the cheat developer will sell his cheats. Now you just created a market for cheat developers and honestly I find rewarding such activity pretty appalling (rewarded with money from the cheaters who pay for it).
Not only does this reward the cheat developers and make the cheaters who pay for it less suspicious (because the anti-cheat is strong so less reasons to doubt/investigate them), it also annoys legit players like in this case -- those on Linux or with DXVK.
You realize they'll just ban Linux outright if they wanted to push on this some more, considering it's open source and any cheat developer can easily modify the kernel and add some cheat module, right? Unless the game comes with its own kernel modules to "detect" this but that's pretty ridiculous, and that's assuming it's even Linux native.Last edited by Weasel; 15 July 2018, 05:35 PM.
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Originally posted by Weasel View PostBecause I don't give a shit of the blissful ignorance of the majority?
With anti-cheat, more of the hardcore cheaters get away with it because there's less suspicion around it (due to most players thinking anti-cheat makes it "impossible" and they live in ignorance), and that's all that matters.
In fact you don't even know if the "large majority" play without cheaters in their current match. You just assume that the ones that are good (supposedly) do so with merit instead of cheating, because well you got your anti-cheat up, and clearly a minority are "cheating".
And yeah you can catch that with statistics and server logs.
I also never said that disabling anti-cheat is the final solution. It's better to have no anti-cheat, but it's far from ideal. Best is to redesign the game so that such cheats have less impact.
As always, you ignore the reality of any human endeavor, the main reason anti-cheat engines exist is because the developers didn't have the time/money to actually do the job right, and adding an anti-cheat engine is cheaper than do the job right, while better than just run the game unprotected. So if you remove the anti-cheat measures the situation is WORSE.
But *any* DLL can do that. You don't have to replace d3d11's DLLs at all to do it.
Most game logic & physics is not done directly server-side due to lag and strain on the server. It's validated weakly, mostly. Speed hacks for example are very prevalent in online games. I only know of few exceptions like World of Tanks that do everything server-side.
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Originally posted by Weasel View Post99% of cheaters (those that starshipeleven speaks about that an anti-cheat is effective against) just download the cheat tool or anti-cheat bypass or whatever. If the anti-cheat is strong enough, that's actually worse because then the cheat developer will sell his cheats. Now you just created a market for cheat developers and honestly I find rewarding such activity pretty appalling (rewarded with money from the cheaters who pay for it).
Still showing your inability to focus on what actually matters the most, and choosing with your emotions again.
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