Linux Developers Still Reject NVIDIA Using DMA-BUF

[pingufunkybeat]

That's a good point: Linux can't do what Windows has been able to do for years... which seems to be par for course.

Yes, but it's always been par for the course.

We would never have a desktop to match CDE, because open source can't do desktops. Must run CDE binaries.
We would never have a word processor to match WordPerfect because open source can't do office suites. Must run WordPerfect binary.
We would never have a browser to match Netscape because open source can't do browsers. Must run Netscape binaries.
We would never have a video player to match Windows Media and Quicktime and RealPlayer because open source can't do codecs. Must run different operating systems.
We would never have a working network driver because open source can't do network. Must run Nvidia nforce whatever instead of the RE forcedeth driver.
We would neevr have good version control because open source can't do version control. Must run BitKeeper.

I've heard this many times, and in the end the open source solution always won out. Sometimes because a binary program was open-sources (Netscape, OpenOffice), sometimes because the clone surpassed the original (KDE, VLC/MPlayer/FFMPEG/x264), sometimes by reverse engineering and improvement till the binary was not needed (forcedeth).

Now I hear that we would never have video drivers to match the binary ones.

Some of you must be new to Linux....

[johnc]

Yes, but it's always been par for the course.

We would never have a desktop to match CDE, because open source can't do desktops. Must run CDE binaries.
We would never have a word processor to match WordPerfect because open source can't do office suites. Must run WordPerfect binary.
We would never have a browser to match Netscape because open source can't do browsers. Must run Netscape binaries.
We would never have a video player to match Windows Media and Quicktime and RealPlayer because open source can't do codecs. Must run different operating systems.
We would never have a working network driver because open source can't do network. Must run Nvidia nforce whatever instead of the RE forcedeth driver.
We would neevr have good version control because open source can't do version control. Must run BitKeeper.

I've heard this many times, and in the end the open source solution always won out. Sometimes because a binary program was open-sources (Netscape, OpenOffice), sometimes because the clone surpassed the original (KDE, VLC/MPlayer/FFMPEG/x264), sometimes by reverse engineering and improvement till the binary was not needed (forcedeth).

Now I hear that we would never have video drivers to match the binary ones.

Some of you must be new to Linux....

"won out" is a bit of a stretch. It would be more accurate to say "finally achieved almost near parity after 400 years".

[pingufunkybeat]

"won out" is a bit of a stretch. It would be more accurate to say "finally achieved almost near parity after 400 years".

More accurate?

The best video codecs are open source (x264, avcodec). The best browser engines are open source (Webkit, Gecko). Best video players are open source (Mplayer, VLC). Best ripping and encoding software is open source (Handbrake). The best desktops are open source, but I understand if some people prefer Apple or Windows. OpenOffice is close to parity, but you seem to be confused on the others.

I won't even mention stuff like webservers and BIND because open source dominated that from the very beginning.

Sometimes doing things right is a slow process. I'm very happy with Linux today, and I'm happy that it keeps improving constantly. The correct choice of license is what has led to this, so I'm happy with that too.

[Paradox Ethereal]

The best audio/dsp plugins are opensource - http://sourceforge.net/projects/pxu/files/

Peace Be With You.

[gamerk2]

Did you read/understand what I said in my post? I never said it was good for Linux's desktop market share, I said it was IMO the right decision to keep code quality, stability and security at a very high level (or at least to let everyone see the mistakes).

Out of curiosity, how if a closed source driver any different from a closed source application? Both have the potential to royally mess up the OS with improper handling. Though I'm sure if Steam breaks the Kernel for a few months, no one will care, because its Steam, and heaven forbid, you WANT it.

If you are going to argue that no closed source drivers should be included, then I would counter-argue that no closed source applications should be permitted either.

You say yourself that you recommend another vendor if one doesn't meet your requirements; do you recommend AMD/Intel for everyone who wants to use linux (who really support linux and OSS)? Or do you recommend nvidia for its pseudo-support of linux (no OSS there)? If the second, then you only want a system free as in "free beer", and don't have a clue about what free as in "free speech" means (or you simply don't care).

I want a driver that works. And the best supported driver on Linux is the closed-source NVIDIA one. At the end of the day, I want the best possible performance out of my machine.

I'm not judging, all I'm saying is that I understand your point of view, but for me (and others) free as in "free speech" is more important, and I'd like you to understand that.

Serafean

And thats fine. But if you refuse to allow something because you don't want closed-source programs/drivers, you automatically give up the right to complain about the missing features that result.

[Rigaldo]

You do realise that AMD is actively developing OSS drivers and releasing specifications, right?

Ahem!! Releasing specifications late, sometimes of old hardware. And I can see the result on my hardware. Not really satisfying.
What about the part where AMD prevents code from being published, that would possibly have video decode acceleration and power management working by now?
Of course they know what they're doing, just "throwing" some bones would please some opensource-obsessed people that. Obsession is always bad, even if it is for good things. I mean, it's possible to die by drinking too much water, you knew?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in total I wouldn't say they have so good Linux support. I'm an MAD user btw now ..
Some improvements seem to come to 12.9 onward though, not enough from what I saw on the beta, hopefully the future is good(release me from the fullscreen glitchiness! xD).
Btw, to give you a hint, radeon is no choice for me, cause I want my laptop on normal temps, which is tough even with low profile(which also means minimum performance all the time).

Intel on the other hand is another story.

I'd take good support over specifications any day personally.
Both is optimal, but what if it's not a choice?

[bridgman]

What about the part where AMD prevents code from being published, that would possibly have video decode acceleration and power management working by now?

You mean the code we wrote for the specific purpose of starting the internal review effort ? The code which everyone complained about us even working on, because we couldn't say for sure if we would be able to release it ?

[Rigaldo]

You mean the code we wrote for the specific purpose of starting the internal review effort ? The code which everyone complained about us even working on, because we couldn't say for sure if we would be able to release it ?

You're right, I know that there's several limits to what developers are allowed to release. Wouldn't there more likely be more progress without those?
The company, AMD, for whatever reason(don't know why, not wanting "to reveal a secret", patent/license by third party, not much my concern) puts some limits to what can be released.
Please correct me if I am wrong, as you are much more of an expert on this. I understand you people do what you can, but that doesn't change what I said above. I don't put blame on the devs, it's not their responsibility not being able to release it. Depending on the reason it's probably completely justified by the company.
But AMD is by no means as open as some people make it out to be. And sorry, but I've had my fair issues with both open and closed drivers.
I pretty much had no issue with the Nvidia closed driver though, and my "research" shows many people have had same experience. So I blame those people who make whoever releases anything open in any way(even if barely any specs) and blame all others. The thing is Nvidia has pretty good support in their driver and their stance is unjustified, counterproductive and only annoying.

I know I shouldn't expect that anytime soon, but I hope the open driver achieves good power management soon. Then I'll likely move to it(cause for my use case I can sacrifice some performance and stability, smoothness overall in desktop use that I have found in radeon will be welcomed too).

My rant isn't really about AMD/NVIDIA/INTEL or whoever. All have their reasons for what they do and are corporates in the end, I know what to expect of them. And it's partly my responsibility to be careful and know what I buy and what I want to use it for. My rant is mostly about opensource zealots. If I made it seem different or said something wrong, please excuse me and correct me.

[bridgman]

You're right, I know that there's several limits to what developers are allowed to release. Wouldn't there more likely be more progress without those?

Yep. Might mean the end of the company, of course, but there would definitely be more progress.

The company, AMD, for whatever reason(don't know why, not wanting "to reveal a secret", patent/license by third party, not much my concern) puts some limits to what can be released.

All of the above, and more. Third party ownership might not be a big concern for you, but it obviously has to be a big concern for us. Same for all the other business and legal risks.

...
But AMD is by no means as open as some people make it out to be.

Agreed. I think we're doing an OK job of being as open as *we* said we would be, but you can find people claiming we promised to do much more, along with people who don't realize we support open source graphics development or have a team of developers working on the driver. Those different claims can't *all* be right

I know I shouldn't expect that anytime soon, but I hope the open driver achieves good power management soon. Then I'll likely move to it(cause for my use case I can sacrifice some performance and stability, smoothness overall in desktop use that I have found in radeon will be welcomed too).

All I can say is that there's a lot of work being done to get there.

My rant isn't really about AMD/NVIDIA/INTEL or whoever. All have their reasons for what they do and are corporates in the end, I know what to expect of them. And it's partly my responsibility to be careful and know what I buy and what I want to use it for. My rant is mostly about opensource zealots. If I made it seem different or said something wrong, please excuse me and correct me.

Yeah, but it's the internet... there are open zealots, closed zealots, zealot zealots... this is where we all live

I really do wish the noise level could be lower though... there are days when I wonder if the internet is actually making people better informed or just providing reinforcement to pre-existing biases and beliefs. In theory everyone should be more knowledgeable and better understand the nuances of the business, but if anything there seems to be more polarizing and more zealotry every year.

Oh well...

[Rigaldo]

I really do wish the noise level could be lower... there are days when I wonder if the internet is actually making people better informed or just providing reinforcement to people's pre-existing biases and beliefs. In theory everyone should be more knowledgeable and better understand the nuances of the business, but if anything there seems to be more polarizing and more zealotry every year.

Sigh...

What the use the internet for depends on the person in my opinion more than the internet.

"zealot zealots"

Yo dawg, I heard you like zealots ..

I follow phoronix and forums closely some time now, so I know that work is being done on many ends, but quick results are probably not to be expected or I might be disappointed(pleasant surprises are always welcome though).

Regarding openness, my graphics working right is the first priority for me actually, I won't get into "holy wars" about it. But at least of the big companies(maybe there are smaller I don't know much about and are different), non is truly open, neither did I expec them to be, some parts are though in cases. It's kinda natural as things work now.
I just don't like reading people who claim that their pc works perfect(or better than mine) cause it can do stuff like boot in an open way. 0_o **
(^bad metaphor)
So I reply .. And it results in reading more of it ..(logic) X_x


I guess I already know what these forums here are like, but since I write anyway, what come is a bit expected sometimes.

Good luck with your work as always. Now please let us continue the trolling etc ..