Future of my support for ATI

[gtrawoger]

Alright, I know this thread has somewhat gone longer that it probably should have, but I needed just to mention something. I actually finally registered just to commend (been on here for a couple years).

First of all, let me assure you that I would love to see more linux support from any of the hardware vendors out there. I have been struggling with this issue for years now.

But here are some reasons why you will have to be patient with it. Not that it will not happen, it will simply take time.

1. To attack ATI on this is not only unfair, but rather immature. Why? Because it's a company! Companies exist to make money. That's it! They need to play the game the best way possible, meaning they will cater to the majority first, then they will worry about the rest (us, the linux user).
This is not that they do not like us or don't want our business, but they need to mind the bottom line. If they didn't, they would be long gone and then where would your support be? In fact, I would bet that the amount of business that the linux community gives them barely makes up for the support they give it (that is ATI, other hardware vendors is a different story). ATI is at least trying.

2. We are the underdogs. We are the minority.
But look at the bright side. Linux is here to stay. That even Microsoft acknowledges. It is actually amazing how much the Linux community has accomplished. Just look what Microsoft did to IBM in the software market. The fact that Linux came out of nowhere and established itself against Microsoft the way it has is pretty good. But since there is still very little money to be made (currently) in Linux, in comparison to, say, Windows, things will go a lot slower.
Get used to it.
What I realized is that you need to research your hardware before you buy it if you want to use it with linux. It's a reality currently.

3. Linux isn't the friendliest to the hardware vendors sometimes, or at least, isn't as friendly as it could (should) be. Now, I am sure going through Microsoft's WHQL isn't a walk in the park for the vendors either. But if you want them to be inclined to support Linux, why not make it inviting. They do want your business, that's for sure. But at what cost. Handing over detailed specs to be openly available can not only be dangerous for them (lots of companies in China and Malaysia that don't care about copyright) but also difficult legally.
Once the linux community has that issue under more control, you will see an increase in support. And I am sure it will come.

All in all, I think things have improve dramatically in the last two years. And I can't see it slow down. And all I am saying is that you can't get too worked up about it. Not good for your health. OS's have never been flawless. Probably never will.

Now, as a counter point: Does our whining about it help? Lets ask our resident ATI representative if it motivates them, or simply take up valuable time spend better elsewhere?

[energyman]

you have raised some valid points, but let me ask you something:
why have vendors of expensive scsi raid cards, sas hardware, myrinet cards, 10gb ethernet cards, infiniband hardware less problems to open their documentation than vendors of cheap usb dsl modems, cheap printers or graphic chips?

[gtrawoger]

In short, who can answer that with absolute knowledge?

As I am no expert in any of this, but rather just another linux user that had to come to some sort of conclusion about all this, even if it is just for my own sanity.

But I do believe there are hardware vendors who simply do not play along. Or simply don't care. I don't believe that this is where ATI should be placed, though. Thus the previous comment.

Hardware vendors, especially those of cheaper components, are under huge pressure from competition. It can very well be that the mentality of those who are in charge is that giving up any information will put them at risk. It may not be an actual threat, but how much of threat to their business is it to them NOT to disclose it. They may just simply want to play it safe.

I do believe that as Linux gets more accepted in the desktop market (it's only been a year since Dell offered Linux, even less since the EEE came out) the mentality will change. They might even know how to pronounce "Linux" soon.

Whatever the case, Hardware vendors are having to adjust from thinking Windows only and it might be more difficult for some than others.

[Dragonlord]

Rather bullshit in fact. Cheap hardware is cheap. They gain no money from the software only from the sold hardware units. Blocking specs is just utter bullshit. With ATI and company we can argue but in fact it's a nice excuse but nothing else. Furthermore whining about how Linux is not an option is another big time bullshit. If you whine then do something about it. Whiners alone I can't stand since they only cause lots of drama and produce no results.

[gtrawoger]

I just want to say that I don't mean we should all just shut up and take it up the rear and smile about it.

Complaining to hardware vendors at times did increase the support they showed, especially if the numbers of people were large enough.

I just came to the defence of ATI here. I believe they are trying.

[gtrawoger]

Rather bullshit in fact. Cheap hardware is cheap. They gain no money from the software only from the sold hardware units. Blocking specs is just utter bullshit. With ATI and company we can argue but in fact it's a nice excuse but nothing else. Furthermore whining about how Linux is not an option is another big time bullshit. If you whine then do something about it. Whiners alone I can't stand since they only cause lots of drama and produce no results.

Like I said, there are some that don't care about Linux.

That goes especially for cheap hardware. It's made to last a couple years and then thrown out. Simple. They make a quick driver for Windows (which is usually crappy too) and pump it out on mass.

I am not saying it's right, all I am saying that that's what's happening. If you can find a way to convince them otherwise, please...

[Dragonlord]

I can understand if some shit hardware does not run on Linux. One of the good things about using Linux is that your machine is pumped full with hardware which is not expensive but good and solid. I've seen tons of crappy build windows machines which barely run but mostly no crappy Linux systems. I have no problems building machines for various usage types ( servers, quite office machines, road warrior laptops, multimedia home users, gamers ) running all kinds of Linux but a 3D accelerator card... especially if only two vendors exist on the market that you can take serious ( in terms of their hardware ) then having lacking drivers puts you in quite a problem. And neglecting a market just because some questionable figures tell you it's unimportant is a crime ( and I think I'm allowed to say this having studied economics in my minor branch ). Having more than one economic leg to rest upon never hurt and it has been shown already that Linux is a market if you serve it properly. It's just working a little bit different.

[bridgman]

you have raised some valid points, but let me ask you something:
why have vendors of expensive scsi raid cards, sas hardware, myrinet cards, 10gb ethernet cards, infiniband hardware less problems to open their documentation than vendors of cheap usb dsl modems, cheap printers or graphic chips?

Geez, even I can answer that one

The "expensive cards" you mentioned are generally expensive because they sell in relatively small quantity. GPUs sell for a lower price but sell in much higher volumes, and the R&D cost (and hence the IP investment) for a GPU is at least an order of magnitude higher than any of the products you mentioned.

In addition, the programming interface for most of those products is relatively far removed from most of the actual IP investment -- in a raid card the proprietary stuff is typically the firmware on the card which a driver developer doesn't get to see, and in a high speed network card (a) you typically have big firmware again and (b) most of the "secret sauce" is in the analog bits not the digital bits.

Finally, none of the products you mention need to strike a balance between open-ness (for Linux) and regulation (FCC cert, DRM robustness etc.. ) the way that GPUs and modems do. Not sure what the deal is with printers but I suspect the margins are just so thin that the cost of providing programming documentation would be the final nail in an already desperately competitive business.

[energyman]

they don't make any money with the printers anyway but with overprized ink and 'special paper' but I do understand your points and they look valid.

I am not even complaining - imho ati is doing a fine job at the moment. Not about ati that is. For printers there is always turboprint - but with some usb stuff... lets say its not even funny.

[grigi]

Not even mentioning that linux in the server space is considered a serious business, esp with DELL and IBM, that makes sure that every server-class system they sell are 100% functional in Linux.

Imagine what would happen if you suddenly block roughly a quarter of the high-margin server market? (The value is estimated off the amount of linux/freebsd servers we are hosting in our IDCs)