Future of ATI Linux drivers

[crazycheese]

Well, if AMD or nVidia don't release drivers for their cards for Windows, it will to lack 'native' (whatever that means to you) support for 3D acceleration.

Hallelujah to that!!! That would make my day!
I, the user of DOS5.0@286-16, DOS6.0@486sx-33, DOS6.22/Windows3.11@486sx-33, Windows95@am5x133, Windows98@K5-150, WindowsME@K6-2-500, WindowsXP@Duron800,Athlon1.2,Athlon2500+ DO NOT CARE ABOUT WINDOWS. You know why? Because it is the BIGGEST crap ever found on this planet! Yes, it is!! And now this crap bashes open standards! Did I mention the amount of software I had to buy in this years??? I had done MUCH more better thing, if I had donated this to authors instead of "buying product". Information is NOT a product, human work is a product!

sudo ./ati-driver-installer-9-8-x86.x86_64.run ?

And what glibc, gcc, xorg versions should I supply?? Should I throw out my old card, because AMD has no corporate customers to pay for it? Or should I use Nvidia, just what I had been forced to do, to have WINE(which is same as supporting winblows)??

Installing drivers and software IS part of using an operating system.

You are talking about WRONG OS here, its NOT! Even on Gentoo, I just add what I wish to world and go drink coffee for 5 mins and start browsing while the rest of my system is emerged!

I'm sorry but if your idea of using an operating system is clicking on bright, 3d, animated buttons that take you to mail, take you to tweeter, take you to retarded clips on youtube, please do yourself a favor and buy a Mac.

Go discuss with Mr. Torvalds what a "distribution" stands for! I guess you are trolling from tty on ipod! My idea of using an operating system is for operating system to allow me to do whatever I want and not getting in the way. And if you prefer to sit in 320x200 tty for the rest of your life - its your choice, not mine.

It's like saying that cars are badly designed because only 'professionals' and 'enthusiasts' (?) can change tires, otherwise, for the regular user who only sees the boxes means to get faster somewhere, it is too complicated. Changing you tires isn't complicated. You don't have to graduate with a diploma in automotive engineering to do it.

Why wont you go buy russian Lada Kalina or Chery Amulet? I assume you are some mega-kluge teenager, who uses tty-only slackware on ipod?

You are just a lazy sob.

Post again and I will request root to suspend your account, so you learn to express yourself politely. Teenager?

And, flying spaghetti monster forbid you should learn a teeny-ini bit about how the tool in front of you works.

Linux ghost 2.6.31-gentoo-r6 #1 SMP PREEMPT Thu Mar 11 00:00:49 CET 2010 x86_64 Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5300 @ 2.60GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

emerge --info|grep Portage
Portage 2.1.7.17 (default/linux/amd64/10.0, gcc-4.3.4, glibc-2.10.1-r1, 2.6.31-gentoo-r6 x86_64)

You FAIL.

We'd have informed consumers making informed choices...

Im human, I take and give back. If you are consumer, its your problem.

15 years ago anybody who owned a car could change his/her own tires.

You trying to tell me, you had first version of Linux kernel? Or trying to BS me into believing DOS was usable without config.sys, and windows 95 had no viruses and FAT troubles?

So, identical people with less resources (you couldn't read on wikipedia how to change a tire, or such) apparently were more informed and apt to act on their own.

If you consider installing a blob in linux complicated, then linux isn't for you.

Do me a favor, ask 95% of kernel-devs, including Linus to leave.

You need some sort of "internet entertainment device" with one bright button for each of your daily leisure and entertainment activities ( idiotic cat videos on youtube, see what Bob is doing right now on tweeter, listen to DRM music ) that is factory set up and locked to do all these things for people too comfortable and ignorant to read a piss poor book. This is what Apple computers are for. You don't have to think, just be yourself.

Heavy weed smoker? Give it up, its bad for your health!

Linux and FOSS grew into what they are today because the community that made it and uses it actively and shapes what it is, is made out of people who GIVE A F*** and don't want just a cheap (free) glittering crap to listen all day long to music, 24, desperate housewives and the plethora of canihascheeseburger crap.

Now, go to FSF and tell them their crosscompiler sucks.

For 99% of what most of you do, you don't need Linux, or Windows or OSX for that matter, you need a smartphone with a big screen and a kb/mouse.

You are welcome to send me one for free. Assuming it has OpenGL4.0 support and does 2-4 Gigaflops.

For the rest of us who care, who actively work on the foss ecosystem, do us a favor and go back to windows or switch to mac.

What have you done for FOSS? Played Command and Conquer all day?
You actively work on SUPPORTING BINARY BLOBS, go windows yourself.

We already have the hideous example of Compiz, a piece of shit 50-cent, useless, pimp my desktop, which create a lot of problem for the non 'professionals' ( by the way, in this field, a professional is someone with a computer science degree, keep that in mind when talking about using an operating system ).

Yeah right, now compiz guys suck because it isnt your taste.
They suck, because they have attracted several millions of people to linux and created first 3D desktop for desktop computers. Know what? Smoke LESS. Now compositing is taken even to Openbox, and like everything in Linux - if you dont want it, you dont install it.

The only reason Compiz exists, is because some idiots wanted to make the Linux GUIs more like Vista or Mac OS X, to show just how awesome Linux can be. This shows a larger problem of trying to make the Linux ecosystem into a pimped-up clone of Windows/MacOSX, meaning that for some, Linux must be a cheap (free) copy of windows so users can 'migrate' easily.

Have fun with your 90x100 ipod! I assume you never knew of such thing as window plugins, and that compiz is solely window manager?

This is like butchering complex analysis into some infantile crap with animations, so people to lazy and comfortable, who in the first place would have no use for it, can 'make a switch' easily from 4th grade arithmetic.

http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/7035/1/

Yes, very lazy.

If this is the raison d'etre for Linux, then fuck, I'm moving to BSD or Solaris.

Do us a favor, go patch FGLRX to make it run on your ipod.

[CNCFarraday]

Your post is so contrieved I won't even bother to respond to it in detail.

First and foremost you completely missed the (bad) car (tires) analogy and you took it a little bit too personally. The 'you' in my post isn't directed at you, it is a generic you, as in people using Linux as a free Windows and expecting a free Windows clone. English isn't nuanced enough for these things.

Second as much as I would like to go into a lengthy discussion, installing a driver for your kernel is part of using an operating system since you ( again, generic 'you', not you personally ) might change your graphics card, or add another or any other hardware device for which dirvers were not available in the latest kernel release available. Maybe I don't understand what you said, but there is no way to have an OS with all drivers built in.

I'm trolling off my Debian. Dunno why all the obsession on your part with Apple and me? do not own an Apple computer or gadget. I have one at work (an iMac and PowerMac) to test a client visualizer for Mac OS X.

How is the OS getting in your way if graphics card manufacturers provide sub-standard binary only drivers ? Once foss driver takes off and is stable (and good) enough to be included in mainstream kernel, there should be no problem with out of the box support for any resolution.

Also, you assume wrong. I am an 40 years old engineer converted to system programmer. But yes, I do like to work in console.
What's up with the Lada and Chery(?).

I work on advanced engineering and scientific simulations and visualizations. Lots of kernel drivers for 'virtual' graphics cards, lots of OpenGL, lots of OpenMP and so on. All on BSD/Linux and some proprietary UNIX variants.

Oh, and I get the "command and conquer" line a lot, from teenagers, especially: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnc
Maybe you are the one with the really narrow vocabulary.

[crazycheese]

Your post is so contrieved I won't even bother to respond to it in detail.

Well, its called personal attack.

First and foremost you completely missed the (bad) car (tires) analogy and you took it a little bit too personally. The 'you' in my post isn't directed at you, it is a generic you, as in people using Linux as a free Windows and expecting a free Windows clone. English isn't nuanced enough for these things.

What? I was expressing my thoughts that opensource 3D stack, and opensource drivers in kernel is best thing for linux, and company doing it should be honoured.
When I get a shower of "sob" and "windows user".
On the background of ATI broadening opensource support and Nvidia removing lastest pieces of it, I think I have made my point of view clear, why I prefer ATI now(you can read my opinion here http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showp...00&postcount=4)

Second as much as I would like to go into a lengthy discussion, installing a driver for your kernel is part of using an operating system since you ( again, generic 'you', not you personally ) might change your graphics card, or add another or any other hardware device for which dirvers were not available in the latest kernel release available. Maybe I don't understand what you said, but there is no way to have an OS with all drivers built in.

Udev and linux kernel already do this. All my hardware running out-of-the-box. Linux' strong point is hardware drivers loaded and preconfigured automatically on demand, which it already does.

I'm trolling off my Debian. Dunno why all the obsession on your part with Apple and me? do not own an Apple computer or gadget. I have one at work (an iMac and PowerMac) to test a client visualizer for Mac OS X.

May I remind you of this:http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showp...&postcount=139

I'm sorry but if your idea of using an operating system is clicking on bright, 3d, animated buttons that take you to mail, take you to tweeter, take you to retarded clips on youtube, please do yourself a favor and buy a Mac.

So, thats you, who enjoys clicking 3D buttons, if I follow your logic. I dont(and will never) own anything *mac. Including Big Mac. Even if surved in white colors.

How is the OS getting in your way if graphics card manufacturers provide sub-standard binary only drivers ? Once foss driver takes off and is stable (and good) enough to be included in mainstream kernel, there should be no problem with out of the box support for any resolution.

CnC was a pretty good game, in 90s, but I didnt assume 40 year old guy posting this.

Look, linux is an opensource system. It rolled out, because its opensource and it has all its benefits because of this.

Currently there is nvidia with windows driver(they call it "crossplatform") and ati which starts to do something the opensource way. If linux want to establish itself as a gaming system, it is much better with opensource drivers. Unlike windows and mac, linux is DRM and limitation free. Unlike BSD, it is not stolen from. And you should really listen to OpenBSD Blob Song if you really using BSD. Any blob in source-based system puts it at serious risk.

Contra your opinion, Id say, if you like blobs, stay on mac, with mac hardware and mac love letter from steve etc etc bb!

[CNCFarraday]

Cheese Man, look you got it all wrong. I mean, literally.

You didn't understand anything I said. First, some of the 'offensive' stuff wasn't aimed at you, but at the other guy for whom changing access rights on a binary is a 'hack'. Maybe I didn't make myself clear, maybe you got the Angy Internet Man syndrome after reading the first sentences and started posting without really reading what I said.

The idea is you are totally off the road. For example, Mirv got it: http://phoronix.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=142

[barbarbaron]

After all this discussion:
I'm still thinking the future of ATI->linux drivers will be crap

[crazycheese]

Cheese Man, look you got it all wrong. I mean, literally.

You didn't understand anything I said. First, some of the 'offensive' stuff wasn't aimed at you, but at the other guy for whom changing access rights on a binary is a 'hack'. Maybe I didn't make myself clear, maybe you got the Angy Internet Man syndrome after reading the first sentences and started posting without really reading what I said.

The idea is you are totally off the road. For example, Mirv got it: http://phoronix.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=142

Well, what I have ment to say in the first post is:
- WINE is not improving linux gaming stack. It is not native and you need to buy windows games and you need nvidia card, because nvidia uses windows drivers on linux.

- I dont understand the purpose of FGLRX and the whole DRM stuff. If someone likes to watch encrypted DVD/Bluray junk I would understand it. DRM will always be cracked, it highers the production costs and prevents writing software - it is garbage. But I dont buy hollywood movies anyway: they are ugly and with same plot(have a picture of how to "make a hollywood scenario in 1 minute" schema somewhere); all movies that I watched were in theaters, since they are almost all "disposable", like cigarettes or LAW(one use - throw away). Maybe District 9 was single exception from this.

And if AMD wants to protect their intellectual property, why not to use GPL on drivers? Samsung is already sued for silently using busybox. AMD, look how Toshiba does with its TVs!

- I have no problem with choices, but the only graphics accelerator manufacturer (of the two), who supports opensource and creates native stack(instead of porting stuff back from other OSes) is AMD. You might work as a software engineer and make money this way; but I see no problem for some serious GAMING shift to linux. Even if I dont game often. Creating games is a job too and being in need to buy windows license every 4 years along with antivirus and support company which HATES opensource, just to play 2-3 games 3-4 times in a month - can see some improvent imho. Currently linux users have to keep and pay windows which uses this money to establish itself over linux. This is wrong.

Hope you can understand my point without spilling flames, like a dragon. Peace out.

[mirv]

The need for proprietary drivers from AMD (and nVidia for that matter) stem not from AMD/nVidia themselves, but rather third parties whose technology is licensed. Take s3tc for example - still proprietary, but used everywhere these days. Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is.

[bridgman]

I dont understand the purpose of FGLRX and the whole DRM stuff.

There is no DRM in fglrx, although to the extent that we share code with other OSes there are unused elements in data structures and unused code segments related to DRM. Remember that our concerns are not related to protecting DRM in the Linux drivers, we're just trying to make sure we don't do anything with Linux drivers that weakens DRM on other OSes (since the hardware and a good chunk of the code is common).

And if AMD wants to protect their intellectual property, why not to use GPL on drivers? Samsung is already sued for silently using busybox. AMD, look how Toshiba does with its TVs!

GPL only protects the actual implementation of the driver code, not the related IP. It doesn't stop someone from using what they learn from a GPL Linux driver to attack the Windows drivers, for example.

[barbarbaron]

Don't mess with brigdman and the opensource people!
RMS will slapp you around bad boy bad boy!

Hehehe You can't understand anything straight? I'm talking about ATI closed source drivers. I'm using intel's opensource stack on my laptop anyway and I'm quite happy with it. See my post here ATI fanboy fanboy:

http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23068&page=2

[CNCFarraday]

WINE is not improving linux gaming stack. It is not native and you need to buy windows games and you need nvidia card, because nvidia uses windows drivers on linux.

That is exactly my position too. WINE is only making the ecosystem worse.

The purpose of FGLRX is to provide a driver for linux. The ugly truth is that the entire 'multimedia' stack in Linux is badly designed. Eveything that we have today was made by people and organizations that needed a framebuffer to blit pixels into. You need an overall architecture built into the operating system for proper graphics, especially for gaming, multi-monitor output, stereo-3D, video decoding and the like. Part of the reason ATI and nVidia buildtheir drivers the way they are is because there isn't much 'underneath' to support proper graphics/video/3d handling. Also the Linux community cannot dictate terms to graphics hardware manufacturers, like M$ does.

No matter how much M$ stuff sucks and no matter how closed it is, it has one rewarding merit for game developers: there is ONE API. It is insanely well documented, it provides everything you need to get up and going and all the extra goodies. Game developers want to make GAMES not to see which version of library x, when used with static library y which was compiled with gcc version z doesn't work and crashes. People with the talent and imagination to create good games, in the gameplay/artistic sense, utterly lack the technical knowledge to develop an engine and the tools and to tweak and debug it on the linux ecosystem.

Look, I love Linux and all it represents, I use it daily at home and at work and I've been using it for >10 years (prior to that i used UNIX :P).

However, I do understand that the idea of Linux and FOSS come at a price. The ecosystem is VERY fragmented, heterogeneous and dynamic. This has many good parts, but also some bad parts, the worst being that Big Business doesn't like it for a myriad of reasons that I can lay out if you want. Developing a commercial product 'for the masses' (not for a niche where you can afford or circumvent the diversity wildcard) for linux, especially something like a game - an entertainment product that a kid is suppose to pop into the hardware and play with no fuss - is very hard to do, even harder to support and worse to justify to the people with money.

If the community really wants to boost Linux gaming it should make something comparable to Flash ( only in capabilities, not in performance ). A complete solution for people with poor technical skills but great artistic ones and lots of imagination to make games. The most imaginative games today are indie games and they thrive on Flash because it offers them a complete solution - development, integration and distribution/availability - to make GAMES. Most of the people who can make the next X-COM, the next Fallout ( not that crap from Bethsada ) the next Half-Life and so on, lack the technical skills to build up the infrastructure (engine, tools, testing and distribution support) to make Linux Games.

Give them the tools and they will thrive. Let the architect make a building, don't force him to use the hammer-o-lamp-o-sprocket. Because most of what Linux is, including the foss ecosystem was and still is made by professionals and 'hobbyists' it is very contrived and limiting for people not having and not wanting and not needing the skills. Most of the concepts and meta-concepts of the Linux world are from the singular point of view of the computer science / programming perspective.

Note that I am definitely NOT arguing for 'dumbing down' Linux. I am arguing FOR better tools, designed not only by programming gurus, but also by specialists in other domain fields and for horizontal integration of the various mega-projects of the FOSS world.

I'd like to see something like Flash or JAVA FX ( yeah poor choice, but still ) made 100% FOSS based on GTK, Cairo for graphics and Mozilla-tech tools for clients ( gui tools, editors etc ), and Python for scripting.