Why I think the DRM and open source debate is nonsense

[bridgman]

I'm not 100% sure, but AFAIK the Via chips only include HW for IDCT and MC, so only those portions of H.263/4 and VC1 are accelerated. There is a VLD extension but not sure if that is just the MPEG2-type VLD or the new stuff (CAV..whatever).

libv (one of the radeonhd developers) was also "the man" for the Unichrome project, so he'll likely know for sure.

So far it appears that we will also be able to expose the blocks which provide IDCT/MC functionality (and I think there's some VLD support there too) for open source drivers. It's the more advanced stuff in UVD that poses the IP challenge. We won't be sure about UVD for a few more months but unless we have a "eureka" moment it's going to have to stay closed.

Part of the confusion here may be that "HD Decoding" seems to mean different things to different people :

- "HD resolution" ?
- "partial but meaningful HW acceleration of video standards like H.264 and VC1" ?
- "full HW acceleration of those standards" ?

[curaga]

Intel is on the way for doing iDCT and MC too (vaapi).

The question is, why should I or any other guy, go buy an AMD card over any other, if you even with the new open strategy only provide something others have provided for some time.

[bridgman]

My thinking was that you would buy our products because they were best suited for your graphics needs.

If you want powerful 3d hardware *and* active support of open source driver development, we seem like a pretty good choice

[Kano]

After 12 month waiting when you get much better cards for the same money

[bridgman]

Are you saying "12 month delay" for powerful 3d hardware or for active support of open source driver development ?

[givemesugarr]

Earlier in this thread bridgman said no company has done so.

Via is my favorite company, right after Intel. Their open source drivers are second best to Intel in Linuxland for features. After them is Matrox, but as their cards don't have hw for HD, they can't implement that.

Via's graphics are similar to Intel's; not awesome 3d game performance, only OK, but watching video and normal use, they rock.
I'd prefer a Via card to Ati any day.

are there any via boards that aren't igps?!

[Kano]

bridgeman:

compared to the fglrx driver the oss driver at least improves faster. fglrx is downgrading like no working pointsprites support since new codebase, no real modeline support (still want to know which modelines and Xorg release was tested for last release notes, 7.1.1 segfaults). So 12 mouth is a friendly guess to have at least AIGLX + xv working with oss driver. Currently AIGLX only works with Xserver 1.3, when you use it with beryl + 7.1.1 then you get a white screen pretty soon. Also Xserver 1.4 support with new codebase is a joke when you need to start glxgears before running amdcccle or any other 3d app... ATI is completely unable to fix these tiny issues, so you need a new definition of high preformance I guess.

[Svartalf]

My thinking was that you would buy our products because they were best suited for your graphics needs.

Right now, not a single one of the normally used suppliers of GPU technology meets my needs appropriately. In some way, they all fall short. Even your employer, John. Yours is the one with the greatest promise- but you're NOT usable in the large right at the moment. That's just how it is.

It'll be vastly better eventually and would be the preeminent choice for everyone- but that's at least 6-12 months from now. Most of the frustration and ire you see in these forums directed to AMD/ATI is due to that fact- and that the general feeling is that this was something that probably ought to happened a bit sooner than it ended up happening. Right or wrong, that's the impression I suspect everyone has- I suspect things will get where people are believing what you're telling us here when the 3D info drop happens and we start seeing real 3D support out of the R500/R600 based devices.

If you want powerful 3d hardware *and* active support of open source driver development, we seem like a pretty good choice

Heh...

Right now, Intel supports things slightly better on the open source front, unfortunately for AMD.

Unfortunately for them, only the GMA x3500 shows to be the first honestly usable, in the large, device they've fielded to date- all the others fall short. They are usable for Compiz if you're operating in the right memory profile, etc. but for games, they're realy subpar like most IGP offerings. It remains to be seen what they accomplish with Larabee- it may be that they make themselves a contender. It may serve to disappoint just like all the other past attempts IGP and discrete that Intel's fielded. And almost ran, but never quite enough for that generation. No telling at this point on them.

Your hardware's vastly superior to pretty much everyone else's except NVidia's offerings, and it's more of a subtlety between yours and theirs- with the overall edge going to AMD if you combine all the strengths shown on paper. Unfortunately, NVidia's drivers work better than yours in our space right at the moment and the Open Source answers aren't there enough yet.

NVidia...They're not open. In some ways, it places them dead last. (That may be one of the reasons for the rumblings of opening up at least some on the 3D support front from them...) But, unfortunately for all the other players in the game, they largely just work on Linux out of the box. And, work right on a broader range of applications than everything but certain FOSS supported devices.

Once we start seeing real 1.5 API support and some 2.X support on your stuff in the DRM or Gallium driver space, then things will definitely change in what I just stated. Then it will be a good choice in the long-term picture of things. But for now... <*sigh*>

[Svartalf]

are there any via boards that aren't igps?!

Not any more. They're fielding on-board devices for the server, low-end laptop, and embedded spaces from S3 these days. You could probably find a couple of discrete boards from them, but they're mostly eval parts so you can develop applications against the GPUs. Not to mention that they're just not in the same class as even Intel's GMA's for the large part. They're better than Intel's GMAs on the discrete front, but unless the IGP has a raftload of dedicated dual-port memory, it doesn't fare as well as Intel's offerings in this space, let alone AMD's or NVidia's...

[Raven3x7]

Not any more. They're fielding on-board devices for the server, low-end laptop, and embedded spaces from S3 these days. You could probably find a couple of discrete boards from them, but they're mostly eval parts so you can develop applications against the GPUs. Not to mention that they're just not in the same class as even Intel's GMA's for the large part. They're better than Intel's GMAs on the discrete front, but unless the IGP has a raftload of dedicated dual-port memory, it doesn't fare as well as Intel's offerings in this space, let alone AMD's or NVidia's...

Actually there are but they are sold as S3 chips and are very hard t get hold of. I dunno if they have the same level of linux support. www.s3graphics.com