Lisa Su Reaffirms Commitment To Improving AMD ROCm Support, Engaging The Community

[Quackdoc]

well nearly everyone and all do hire aggressively but thats not the key point.

the key point is that all these companies and not only amd i really mean ALL these companies do not train/educate new uneducated personal in PAID professional trainings. they plain and simple do not invest in education.

if i write a job application for a professional training at AMD i am sure i will not get a position.

no one expect this: "so other than going out on the street, clubbing random people and dragging them into the offices"

but it is well known that young people do not get PAID professional training because the complete market is anti-educational.

they all claim the EVIL Government and their joke of a education system of school and professional training and university with their evil forced compulsory education school with government authorized fake curriculum who the evil government force proofed lies on the schoolars will to the education part and they all only want the best selected students from the university. yes SELETION instead of education this means this negative elitism university system they teach absolutely nothing but they Select those who don't need any teaching.

i know people at the university they tell me the university they teach absolutely nothing its only negative elitism they get new topic every week and be tested every week and maybe maybe maybe they get some help after they failed in the test not a second before.

this means this complete education system is complete bullshit its selection instead of education.

If AMD does want 500 software developers they of course have 500-1000 positions for professional training to fill these postitions on the long run right ?... no they don't they are parasites who want the finished students from the compulsory education school system.

in germany if you do a LPI certificate like LPIC1 or LPIC2 or whatever the official evil government system does not recognize the certificate as a approved education title and if you do a recognized title like Fachinformatiker IHK (IT system integration professional training title) you are FORCED to do the final exam on microsoft windows. and this is the point the official school and education system is completely captured by the evil forces of Properitary and closed source monopole deep state shit and if you dare to avoid this evil shit and do a Linux Professional certificate you are not recognized by the evil official government who is completely captured and controled by the deep state evil forces.

no idea how pure your drugs are, but I would reccomend finding a new dealer cause whatever they are getting laced with is wild

[cgmb]

Is it possible to define sane defaults somewhere so that normal users can skip the "figure out the right settings" step once it's done by someone such as yourself that actually knows what they're doing?

Yes. I've been working on that for some time. On Debian, you can now install libhsa-runtime64-1 5.2.3-4~exp1, libamdhip64-5 5.2.3-10~exp1 and libhiprtc-builtins5 5.2.3-10~exp1 from the experimental repositories to get HIP to 'do the right thing'. That said, any program or library that explicitly loads kernels would need to know which ones are compatible, so the changes I made might not always be sufficient. For that reason, you'll sometimes still want to use the environment variables I documented.

It's still an open question whether my patches will be making their way out of Experimental and into Unstable/Testing. I don't want to introduce differing behaviours between distros, but I also don't want to keep users waiting too long for a solution from upstream.

Is this something that can be solved upstream or only by each distro? (please say upstream... please... wink)

There is a proper solution in development upstream. It should be a much cleaner solution, but the soonest it could possibly land is three releases away (at a minimum), which is why I'm trying to more clearly document the workarounds.

[qarium]

qarium , your post is a stream of rude paranoid FUD with a very faint ghost of a passable argument burried beneath a pile of toxicity and trash

right and i honestly don't care. i see this education system as a complete bullshit crap show.
Hate-Speech=Truth

They want to Hire Developers but they do not want to spend money to to train trainees in a paid professional training.
they are anti-educational parasites who just want to leech the output of the EVIL and harmfull compulsory education system.

they manipulate our education system by pushing closed source and proprietary technology on the children we claim to protect and this toxic proprietary closed source stuff makes the children addicted like on "heroin".
we make these children addicted to Microsoft and Apple products and they become so addicted to it that they never can change this situation. its like a heroin addict who can never get of the drug.

but not only that our harmfull compulsory education system force the children to learn clear lies as facts.
and the government FORCE this on children and Families and all these children become trauma for life.

You could have simply asked bridgman (IMHO one of if not the most positive, well informed, informative and well meaning users in Phoronix, BTW) if AMD has tried or is trying to do anything in the lines of Google Summer of Code, scholarships, etc to find/build talent to fill those positions.

yeah i get it bridgman is great... for many years google summer of code was part of the Toxic negative elitism because they only allowed university students and because the government limit the access to the university for people with the highest school degree you can not be part of this club without mallow all the toxic government lies.
but of course i have to admit google changed this to theoretical allow anyone. but of course they never say sorry for 20 years of discrimination. for this alone the brand name google summer of code is burned forever and AMD should not follow this toxic negative elitism.

", etc to find/build talent to fill those positions"

first step should be to admit that our education system is a failure. and forced compulsory education is a failure.

if you watch this video:
"Grading is a Scam (and Motivation is a Myth) | A Professor Explains"

https://youtu.be/fe-SZ_FPZew

this video proofs that in our education system there are mechanisms at work who kills any excellence
you plain and simple get better grades if you choose stupid and simple tasks instead of hard and excellence tasks.
people always only do the bare minimum to get the grades they want. and not more and excellence would take much more effort than the bare minimum.

if you outsmart your teacher and make him look stupid he will use his position of power to harm you by give you bad grades.

our education system is a complete Scam!!!

why not abolish this scam of a education system ? and give the Freedom back to the children so that they again have a choice to learn something or not. self-determined learning instead of forced compulsory education.

"You could have simply asked"

I would say hire more people fire more people means give more people a chance to proof themself and if they do not do good just fire them. and also if someone lag the education don't reject them instead put them on a professional training.

and consider to write a educational book/documentary in combination to offer a certification so that people can learn it and can get a certificate. like the ISA documentary of the first AMD opensource driver many many people did download it and did read it that was great for documentation. later amd did no more spend much time on that what is a great loss for us all.

And maybe they are (it's not necessarily something everyone will read up about in the afternoon news), or maybe they might take the suggestion seriously... or maybe investing in talent is also something that was not in the roadmap until recently because of their financial constraints... but you're too damn good to ask

dude i am not sure what do you want to tell me here.
maybe they are what ?
what does not end up in the afternoon news ?
what suggestion they maybe take seriously ?

well the problem is bigger than just amd ... AMD do want hire 500 developers right now other companies they all together want to hire millions of developers right now. means there is a structural problem in our educational system. i know many people on welfare in germany they do absolutely nothing and they gave up long time ago ans some of them do even have high IQ of 130+

i think the solution could be something like https://bountysource.com/ means do more work in the open and opensource and let people do the work who do not have the education or does not have the skill to profit from the fact that people can evolve by just try it.

they underestimate the power of the will. someone who maybe has good grades and many school and university degrees maybe does not have strong will. and on bountysource.com nothing of this fake degrees matter it only matters if you have the will to do it and educate yourself to do it ... there are news of new CPUs designed by uneducated and unskilled people with the help of ChatGPT this means the will to do something can be stronger than the formal education. in the time of AI like chatGPT this is a certainty

Also, no... i bet a hadron collider, a deep-space telescope, a person called Linus, your smartphone's camera and GPS and every medical doctor in the world that all Universities are not BS.

then you lost already because universities are a outdated technology what makes no sense in the time of the internet and AIs like chatGPT. someone can learn everything what the university teach without ever entering a university.

why not admit that it is a obsolete institution ? and that with modern technology we can do much better than that.

Of course it has problems, including ethical ones at times, but people spreading this sort of "theory" (except you know... not) are a big part of why large chunks of the educational system are abandoned and allowed to regress into a meaningless pulp in some parts of the world instead of being worked on and improving their contribuitions to humanity.
What an irresponsible tantrum! Grow up!

Dude i study this evil system for like 25+ years. and i know everything about this system.
this system does not have "problems" you can fix it only has problems you can not fix.
if you could fix it easily you would had fixed it already 20 years ago .

if you read the stack overflow developer survey 2023 then you can read that the traditional education system of school and university is already outgunnes by youtube and Codecademy.

see this part:

" Learning how to code
Learning to code from online resources increased from 70% to 80% since the 2022 survey.
Respondents 18 and under are those most frequently selecting online resources (e.g., videos, blogs, forums) to learn from. Respondents 25 - 34 were the top age cohort to have learned from online courses or certifications (52%) but still learn more from traditional school (55%).

Other online resources (e.g., videos, blogs, forum)	80.13%
Books / Physical media	51.8%
School (i.e., University, College, etc)	50.14%
Online Courses or Certification	49.28%
On the job training	46.06%
Colleague	23.41%
Friend or family member	11.33%
Coding Bootcamp	9.81%
Hackathons (virtual or in-person)	8.02%

"

as you can see people learn more by books and youtube and phoronix.com forum and online courses and so one and so one.

"but people spreading this sort of "theory" (except you know... not) are a big part of why large chunks of the educational system are abandoned and allowed to regress into a meaningless pulp in some parts of the world instead of being worked on and improving their contribuitions to humanity"

believe me its not my fault that this education system dissolve itself. its the fact that this education system only works for the 1/3 choosen elite children who get the best scores what makes them motivated and the rest 2/3 are pushed into marginalization as so called "losers" to the 1/3 to be able to be shown as """elite""" you need to marginalize 2/3 who then are demotivated to do anything.

Michael , please delete this along quarium's post if you choose to moderate his... I'll gladly see this erased and repost the only part that really matters (asking if AMD is trying to create talent in some way besides job postings) as a direct question

censorship is the only way this evil harmful compulsory education system and its minions can survive

[qarium]

no idea how pure your drugs are, but I would reccomend finding a new dealer cause whatever they are getting laced with is wild

thats not the cause of drugs at all its the cause of trauma from this education system.

[geearf]

it works on like 5 cards and none of them are consumer cards. you can try to run it on like 5 more consumer cards but it's a crapshoot whether it'll actually work.

I've run it on a bunch of consumer cards in 2022, including an older Polaris, so not sure what you're talking about.

[timofonic]

I've run it on a bunch of consumer cards in 2022, including an older Polaris, so not sure what you're talking about.

What others? It would be interesting to know!

[bridgman]

They want to Hire Developers but they do not want to spend money to to train trainees in a paid professional training.
they are anti-educational parasites who just want to leech the output of the EVIL and harmfull compulsory education system.

Um... how about next time you ask about training rather than wasting a good rant on the wrong target ?

I can't speak for the CPU side of the business but on the GPU side many of our new engineering hires need and receive training on GPU internals and driver-level programming since there are very few companies in that business.

We don't bring people in with zero programming experience - as you say, people who are interested in the domain will generally find a way to learn through one means or another - but we certainly do not limit our hiring to people with specific experience in the area where they will be working . As I said earlier, you can't do that in the GPU business.

One thing we always used to say re: getting involved with open source driver development is that the best foundation is having familiarity with code that uses OpenGL, since if you understood what the application was trying to do it was fairly straightforward to work your way down through the stack and understand the cryptic commands sent to the GPU. These days I would add Vulkan and OpenCL/CUDA/HIP/SYCL as alternatives to OpenGL but the basic idea still holds.

I don't know what we did to earn your vitriol but I believe it to be not just incorrect but attacking one of the better companies in that regard.

If you are saying that we should be hiring people with zero computer or programming knowledge and "hoping they work out" then I agree we are not doing that (nor do I think it makes sense other than maybe as some kind of industry-level initiative), but we do work with universities in the areas where we have R&D centers, particularly in the areas where the schools are reaching out to people who may not be currently enrolled.

I may be missing the point you are trying to make - let me know if that is the case.

[DRanged]

Yes. I've been working on that for some time. On Debian, you can now install libhsa-runtime64-1 5.2.3-4~exp1, libamdhip64-5 5.2.3-10~exp1 and libhiprtc-builtins5 5.2.3-10~exp1 from the experimental repositories to get HIP to 'do the right thing'. That said, any program or library that explicitly loads kernels would need to know which ones are compatible, so the changes I made might not always be sufficient. For that reason, you'll sometimes still want to use the environment variables I documented.

It's still an open question whether my patches will be making their way out of Experimental and into Unstable/Testing. I don't want to introduce differing behaviours between distros, but I also don't want to keep users waiting too long for a solution from upstream.



There is a proper solution in development upstream. It should be a much cleaner solution, but the soonest it could possibly land is three releases away (at a minimum), which is why I'm trying to more clearly document the workarounds.

Just noticed that these packages, 5.2.3-8 are in Debian testing/trixie already.

[smitty3268]

We have been hiring aggressively for a couple of years and have over 500 software positions advertised in addition to the software teams that came in as part of the Xilinx acquisition so other than going out on the street, clubbing random people and dragging them into the offices I'm not sure what you think we should be doing differently in terms of staffing.

I'm not going to get into details, because I don't think it's useful and AMD has a lot smarter people than me who could figure that out. Just wanted to agree with the sentiment of the initial poster and disagree with the sentiment of anyone who thought AMD couldn't improve their drivers.

I will say that I find it difficult to believe AMD couldn't improve their prosumer level of support for compute beyond what it's currently at. I think it's pretty obvious AMD is targeting large business users that have specific needs, while largely ignoring (well, let's say de-prioritizing to be nice) the needs of the prosumer market. And that's the market you are going to get representatives from on Phoronix.

I have to assume the support the larger business consumers are getting is significantly better, since otherwise I don't think AMD would be getting any business at all from their professional products. That's not really something anyone here would know about.

[qarium]

Um... how about next time you ask about training rather than wasting a good rant on the wrong target ?
I can't speak for the CPU side of the business but on the GPU side many of our new engineering hires need and receive training on GPU internals and driver-level programming since there are very few companies in that business.

If you ask me the fact that there is the need for internal training because there are only a very few companies in that business is
not sustainable for a society. really not.
there is a possibility that open source graphic card and gpu design concepts like Libre-SOC is not a competition to AMD graphic cards at all but instead it is a training ground for young talents.

thats why i seriously advices to write a book about these tasks like the GPU ISA manuals i think there are many people interesting in reading something like this.

We don't bring people in with zero programming experience - as you say, people who are interested in the domain will generally find a way to learn through one means or another - but we certainly do not limit our hiring to people with specific experience in the area where they will be working . As I said earlier, you can't do that in the GPU business.

a company like AMD write job advertisements and describe what the applicant must be able to do but maybe
they should consider to write mini manuals to describe how to learn.
thats a very different way to do this.

there is a book "Chip War: The Fight for the World's Most Critical Technology"
https://www.amazon.de/Chip-War-Domin...E=%C3%85M%C3%8 5%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=10QYT8BQGCKIZ&keywords=hi story+of+the+chip+industry&qid=1687321314&sprefix= history+of+the+chip+industry%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-2

with a book like this AMD could get the attention of talents.

One thing we always used to say re: getting involved with open source driver development is that the best foundation is having familiarity with code that uses OpenGL, since if you understood what the application was trying to do it was fairly straightforward to work your way down through the stack and understand the cryptic commands sent to the GPU. These days I would add Vulkan and OpenCL/CUDA/HIP/SYCL as alternatives to OpenGL but the basic idea still holds.

right but isn't it sad that OpenGL was no future ? or do i completely see it in the wrong way ?
i watches dome books on amazon about this topic and found some about WebGPU

https://www.amazon.de/Practical-GPU-...C5%BD%C3%95%C3 %91&crid=MD398EUTUKC9&keywords=webgpu&qid=16873216 60&sprefix=webgpu%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-4

https://www.amazon.de/Practical-WebG...C5%BD%C3%95%C3 %91&crid=MD398EUTUKC9&keywords=webgpu&qid=16873216 60&sprefix=webgpu%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.de/WebGPU-Example...C5%BD%C3%95%C3 %91&crid=MD398EUTUKC9&keywords=webgpu&qid=16873216 60&sprefix=webgpu%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-3

https://www.amazon.de/WebGPU-API-Int...C5%BD%C3%95%C3 %91&crid=MD398EUTUKC9&keywords=webgpu&qid=16873216 60&sprefix=webgpu%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-6

in your openGL example do WebGPU also work ?

I don't know what we did to earn your vitriol but I believe it to be not just incorrect but attacking one of the better companies in that regard.

that was nothing specific about AMD really not. and sure other companies are even worst.

but what exactly is incorrect ? all these companies do not want to in invest money in education ans always demand that the compulsory education system of the governments do the task instead. and the government education system is in fact the reason why the situation is so bad that no one can hire the developers they want to hire.

if the government fails in this task people should bypass the government education system.

If you are saying that we should be hiring people with zero computer or programming knowledge and "hoping they work out" then I agree we are not doing that (nor do I think it makes sense other than maybe as some kind of industry-level initiative), but we do work with universities in the areas where we have R&D centers, particularly in the areas where the schools are reaching out to people who may not be currently enrolled.

I do not say that companies like AMD should pay for people with zero knowledge but the government and society really should think about such a zero-knowledge initiative.

lets say the government send 100 people to AMD for internship or training and lets say 99% of them fail what should not be a big surprise then we have 1 developer more than the situation before. because this single one developer who succeeded whould not have had a job opportunity without this program. and i think this zero-knowlege person is not one of these people: "people who are interested in the domain will generally find a way to learn through one means or another"

now you say it is a inefficient system and i admit that it is a inefficient system but i also think a inefficient system is better than no concept to this problem what we have right now.

i think the concept what we have right now with the concept of sift out talents and then you only focus on these talents are a
outdated management princible because many people do not even know if they have talent or they do not even know they have some kind of interest in a field. you can not know what you don't know. and also you can not like what you don't know.

I may be missing the point you are trying to make - let me know if that is the case.

on my point of view the sift out process in our education system is broken and as soon an individual is demotivated by this system
he will never be again a resourceful talent.

of course this broken education system is not the fault of AMD and my vitriol was not specific to any company.