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  • #61
    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
    All engineer time put into supporting long since discontinued hardware is time away from supporting supported hardware used by many more people.
    Yet they support such hardware for years. This is the very reason my latest GPU is from AMD, my next GPU will be from AMD, and GPU I recommends to people around me will be from AMD. Oh, and by the way, my friend noticed yesterday that he been using R9 290 for six years, and it's still very well supported. So guess which one GPU he will buy now?

    Good, reliable support over years for old hardware sells new hardware, but it's seems like you don't understand it. Maybe because your field is engineering, but not management or sales?

    We don't demand anything, instead we are just free to make any purchase decision - you don't like it? Well, that's your problem, not ours.

    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
    Well here you are moaning about how they should
    No, I simply described what happened.

    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
    You're free to insist they should support hardware that's been out of production for years with all the latest features, but I'm still going to point out that this is inevitably done at the cost of support for more recent hardware
    What if their new hardware doing just fine and they actually can afford improving GCN1 support? My other friend's kid got Navi few days ago, happily getting 60 fps in Metro Exodus on Ultra. Yeah, on Linux.

    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
    Now that's a pretty poor straw man right there... We're not talking about cancelling investment altogether by rather extending a new graphics driver to support hardware that was discontinued years before said driver was ever released to the public.
    You either use "1%" as argument or you don't.
    If you do - you can use it to "proof" pretty much any bullshit against gaming on Linux. Just like this:

    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
    Again, demanding AMD go over and beyond writing loads of unique code for long since discontinued hardware when you're only 1% of the PC gaming market is just plain entitled. That's the best way I can describe it all.
    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
    iit's a pretty wasteful effort as it only caters to a small minority of users in what's already a very niche platform with only 1% market penetration.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
      Yet they support such hardware for years. This is the very reason my latest GPU is from AMD, my next GPU will be from AMD, and GPU I recommends to people around me will be from AMD. Oh, and by the way, my friend noticed yesterday that he been using R9 290 for six years, and it's still very well supported. So guess which one GPU he will buy now?
      Sure, they support it on Windows with the much smaller additional workload due to not having to write and test a whole load of new code for a new driver along with a userbase over 90 times the size of the Linux one.

      It's about having reasonable expectations. To expect this much lesser amount of work on a platform that has well over 90% of the market is perfectly reasonable. However to expect a considerably higher amount of work on a platform that only has about 1% of the market is simply entitled. Particularly when it's for hardware that has been out of production for years and is about adding support for things that didn't exist when the hardware was released.

      Good, reliable support over years for old hardware sells new hardware, but it's seems like you don't understand it. Maybe because your field is engineering, but not management or sales?
      I am an engineer by trade, but these days we do have to take mandatory business school classes and work with business school students on projects so we also understand the calculations behind the decisions if something is worth the investment in money and engineering resources. Here the situation is so simple you don't even have to dig out a calculator to conclude that it just isn't worth the investment. If engineers want to work on this in on their own time than that's fine, but from a business perspective this just isn't worth it.

      We don't demand anything, instead we are just free to make any purchase decision - you don't like it? Well, that's your problem, not ours.
      Yet here you still are, constantly moaning about how AMD doesn't support their GPUs from 2+ years before AMDGPU was released to the public well enough under it.

      What if their new hardware doing just fine and they actually can afford improving GCN1 support? My other friend's kid got Navi few days ago, happily getting 60 fps in Metro Exodus on Ultra. Yeah, on Linux.
      You know why your friend's kid is playing Metro Exodus happily at 60 FPS on their shiny new AMD graphics card? Because AMD put in huge amounts of effort to support the shiny new graphics card from even before it was launched and are still improving it. It's so well supported because they prioritized support for new hardware instead of wasting that limited time and engineering resources on adding new features for old hardware that's been out of production for years by now.

      Can you guess where the focus of their engineering effort is right now? It's on supporting the next pieces of hardware coming down the pipeline just as well as that shiny Navi card at launch and beyond.

      You either use "1%" as argument or you don't.
      If you do - you can use it to "proof" pretty much any bullshit against gaming on Linux. Just like this:
      I use that 1% figure, which is based on Steam statistics, to justify what's actually reasonable to expect of AMD. The amount of work that AMD puts into their Linux efforts is already more than generous and what you're demanding pushes the line towards plain absurdity from a business logic perspective. It's honestly like you're on the autistic spectrum or something when you keep talking about the business argument for extremely generous support and I keep pointing out that there isn't a business argument for that kind of extreme generosity and to demand it like you do is plain entitled.
      Last edited by L_A_G; 07-15-2020, 11:32 AM.

      Comment


      • #63
        1% vs 90% - you know what is reasonable to expect for 1% userbase? Nothing. It's reasonable to not expect any support. So, again, with 1% you can prove any bullshit, including no support for Linux at all. Because, it's reasonable to not support 1% userbase. Here the situation is so simple you don't even have to dig out a calculator to conclude that it just isn't worth the investment. Expect any support for a platform that only has about 1% of the market is simply entitled. There is just even nothing to discuss, 90% vs 1%, plain and simple

        Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
        Yet here you still are, constantly moaning about how AMD doesn't support their GPUs from 2+ years before AMDGPU was released to the public well enough under it.
        How did you missed for 100500 the time that AMD in fact do support GPUs from 2+ years. On both of Windows and Linux. I don't "moan" or "demanding" because there is nothing to demand or moan about - they already support it, like it or not. Ah and you don't forget about friend's kid with Navi, but missed friend with R9 290 who will buy new AMD GPU exactly because his old AMD GPU was well supported over all these years. For some reason you choose to ignore that AMD in fact already support their old GPUs for 1% userbase much better than you want it to be from your own "business perspective" that somehow turns out to be very different from AMD managers "business perspective".

        Once again, so you don't miss it:
        I don't need to demand or ask for anything. They already support support their old GPU for Linux userbase well enough, including their move described in the article. If you don't like what they already do - it's your problem. They already doing this anyway, regardless of what we post here, or how "business perspective" looks like from your point of view.
        Last edited by RussianNeuroMancer; 07-16-2020, 02:00 AM.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
          1% vs 90% - you know what is reasonable to expect for 1% userbase? Nothing. It's reasonable to not expect any support. So, again, with 1% you can prove any bullshit, including no support for Linux at all. Because, it's reasonable to not support 1% userbase. Here the situation is so simple you don't even have to dig out a calculator to conclude that it just isn't worth the investment. Expect any support for a platform that only has about 1% of the market is simply entitled. There is just even nothing to discuss, 90% vs 1%, plain and simple
          Yet you've been moaning about how they should put even more effort into supporting a niche of a nice market... They're already being very generous, but you've still got the gall to be complaining about it. Ever heard of the expression about looking a gift horse in the mouth?

          How did you missed for 100500 the time that AMD in fact do support GPUs from 2+ years. On both of Windows and Linux. I don't "moan" or "demanding" because there is nothing to demand or moan about - they already support it, like it or not. Ah and you don't forget about friend's kid with Navi, but missed friend with R9 290 who will buy new AMD GPU exactly because his old AMD GPU was well supported over all these years. For some reason you choose to ignore that AMD in fact already support their old GPUs for 1% userbase much better than you want it to be from your own "business perspective" that somehow turns out to be very different from AMD managers "business perspective".
          You've been moaning for years about how 1st and 2nd gen GCN aren't officially and fully supported under AMGPU and thus doesn't get support for Vulkan API (both released 2 years after the last 2nd gen GCN hardware was discontinued), even a few posts ago, but now their support is somehow suddenly really great? As soon as I got trough to you that demanding top-tier support for long since discontinued hardware on a niche platform is plain unreasonable you immediately flip-flop to say that it's really great that my business-based arguments are bogus because of this suddenly super-great support.

          Once again, so you don't miss it:
          Nice try, but I can see right trough your lame attempt at trying to pretend like you were arguing for something entirely different after I proved how absurd your argument was.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
            complaining about it.
            Direct quote and link to message with complain.

            Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
            You've been moaning for years
            Direct quote and link to messages (over years) so we can have something to discuss here.

            Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
            even a few posts ago
            Again, direct quote and link to message.

            Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
            because of this suddenly super-great support.
            I been saying that for nine years in case you missed it. You know, since "Tear Free Desktop" checkbox in fglrx settings (years before Nvidia fixed V-Sync for KWin and Compiz) and since official CrossFireX support in fglrx (eight years before Nvidia official Optimus support).

            At this point I starting to think that you confusing me with someone else.

            Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
            Nice try, but I can see right trough your lame attempt at trying to pretend like you were arguing for something entirely different
            Dude, it's you who reading "something entirely different" in my messages. All I said was a). supporting old GPUs is good PR and it's working; b). "1%" argument is bullshit because you can prove anything with it, even not supporting Linux at all, which doesn't makes sense*; c). last time I argued with you I stated my preference for support by mainline instead of BSP/SDK/etc. several times. That it. Again, that it. Really. You come up with everything else on your own, like complains, moaning, demand, and other stuff I never mentioned. Maybe it's language barrier or maybe you confusing me with someone else. Or maybe you don't like our last last conversation and simply assume worse where it was never intended to looks like this. Chill out.

            * For example due to existence of other markets besides gaming.
            Last edited by RussianNeuroMancer; 07-16-2020, 12:40 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Did this work on the Southern Islands firmware delay the work on video decoding under the Vulkan API, as it would be a little odd to do another partial GCN-family video decode support release? Khronos Group? Anyone?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                Direct quote and link to message with complain.
                As you wish; Here's what you said on the previous page of this thread:

                Because, you now, it's insane to keep buying from vendor who never delivered feature complete driver for it's past gen hardware. It's just stupid thing to do, plain and simple.
                That's you moaning about AMD supposedly never having delivered a "feature complete" driver for GCN1 and GCN2 hardware, going on to say that it's "insane" and "stupid" to buy their hardware, "plain and simple" as you put it.

                I been saying that for nine years in case you missed it. You know, since "Tear Free Desktop" checkbox in fglrx settings (years before Nvidia fixed V-Sync for KWin and Compiz) and since official CrossFireX support in fglrx (eight years before Nvidia official Optimus support).
                That doesn't sound like anything I've ever seen you say and it's in total contrast to what you were saying right up until this page of this thread...

                At this point I starting to think that you confusing me with someone else.
                Well I'm starting to wonder if I'm talking with someone who is so badly on the spectrum they can't ever admit they're wrong or if they're suffering from a case of multiple personality disorder.

                Dude, it's you who reading "something entirely different" in my messages. All I said was a). supporting old GPUs is good PR and it's working; b). "1%" argument is bullshit because you can prove anything with it, even not supporting Linux at all, which doesn't makes sense*; c). last time I argued with you I stated my preference for support by mainline instead of BSP/SDK/etc. several times. That it. Again, that it. Really. You come up with everything else on your own, like complains, moaning, demand, and other stuff I never mentioned. Maybe it's language barrier or maybe you confusing me with someone else. Or maybe you don't like our last last conversation and simply assume worse where it was never intended to looks like this. Chill out.
                Sure... I'm reading something entirely different in your previous posts after you flip-flopped when it became apparent that stance wasn't working...

                A) You've been moaning for years that AMD doesn't support their older GPUs properly under Linux, saying that it's "stupid" and "insane" to keep buying their GPUs, "plan and simple"

                B) That figure is proof that what we're already getting is very generous so your moaning about having "never delivered a feature-complete driver on older hardware" is just plain entitled complaining

                C) How is that even relevant when we're talking about your moaning about not having good enough support for older hardware, then doing a total flip-flop claiming that AMD's been really great with support under Linux after I conclusively proved that your demands were unreasonable and that what AMD was already doing was very generous.

                * For example due to existence of other markets besides gaming.
                Yet you keep going on about games, stuff like Proton and that friends' kid playing Metro Exodus...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                  As you wish; Here's what you said on the previous page of this thread
                  That's you moaning about AMD supposedly never having delivered a "feature complete" driver for GCN1 and GCN2 hardware, going on to say that it's "insane" and "stupid" to buy their hardware, "plain and simple" as you put it.
                  You've been moaning for years that AMD doesn't support their older GPUs properly under Linux, saying that it's "stupid" and "insane" to keep buying their GPUs, "plan and simple"
                  Let's make it complete:

                  lag: your argument that suggests they've dropped support for these older parts
                  rnm: I doesn't suggest anything about dropped support. Don't make things up, please. I said "Sane customers still take vendor commitment to prolonged hardware support and promises fulfillment into account during shopping for new hardware." and this is what I mean. Because, you now, it's insane to keep buying from vendor who never delivered feature complete driver for it's past gen hardware. It's just stupid thing to do, plain and simple.

                  Even back then I drag your attention to the fact that you read something I didn't said. This is also the case with quote you provided as proof of yours accusations against me. This sentence was intentionally general and disconnected from any specific vendors, operating systems or drivers. Moreover, I can't say it's insane or stupid to buy AMD hardware because I buy AMD hardware for nine years and recommend AMD to people around me for nine years. Again, you read something I didn't said.

                  Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                  That doesn't sound like anything I've ever seen you say
                  Years later I remember my opinion about fglrx and amdgpu better than you remember my opinion about fglrx and amdgpu - what a surprise! Totally unexpected, right?

                  Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                  and it's in total contrast to what you were saying right up until this page of this thread...
                  Let me correct this sentence so it will make more sense for you: "and it's in total contrast to what I read in your messages". Get it now? Like above, "I doesn't suggest anything about dropped support. Don't make things up, please."

                  Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                  Well I'm starting to wonder if I'm talking with someone who is so badly on the spectrum they can't ever admit they're wrong or if they're suffering from a case of multiple personality disorder.
                  Projecting own issues/experience much? After all there should be reason why you see something entirely different in my messages or "remember" something about me that never happened. Stresses associated with this year could have taken their toll too.
                  Before writing this paragraph I actually spent hour trying to find "moaning for years about how 1st and 2nd gen GCN aren't officially and fully supported under AMGPU" in my own messages on this forum. Can't find it:
                  amdgpu
                  vulkan
                  decoding
                  va-api
                  vaapi
                  dropped
                  support (include "unsupported" too)

                  Don't take my word on this, check every message yourself, try different keywords, etc. But you will not find anything, because I never said things you think I said.

                  Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                  How is that even relevant
                  To make list of my statements complete so I can say "That it. Again, that it. Really."

                  Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                  after I conclusively proved that your demands were unreasonable and that what AMD was already doing was very generous
                  You won your fight with straw-man, congrats. Now, why you put this straw-man here in first place and why you remember something that never happened?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                    You've been moaning for years about how 1st and 2nd gen GCN aren't officially and fully supported under AMGPU
                    Found anything yet?

                    Comment

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