System76 Unveils Thelio "Open" Desktops With Intel/AMD CPU Options, NVIDIA/Radeon GPUs

[Michael_S]

Sure, the local manufacturing angle is good, and the case looks great. The problem I have is with the "innards" -- why not offer something based on an open, owner-controlled architecture to go with the open case? Literally all they would have had to do was select one of the existing mainboard / CPU options (like for instance the Talos II ) and added it alongside the other options, passing along any extra cost to the end user. The're literally a Linux shop building their own OS already -- this should be simple compared to what other OEMs / system integrators would have to go through.

I imagine a pretty significant portion of System76 customers play Steam games or at least gog.com games, which means a CPU architecture outside x86_64 won't fly. So this didn't surprise me at all.

The segment of the market that both prizes freedom over gaming convenience and is also able and willing to spend moderate amounts of money is probably too small for System76 to profitably target. (Or maybe even to 'break even' target.)

FWIW I'm typing this from my own Talos II machine. On Chrome. With the only visible difference from this desktop to my older x86 desktops being the boot time and the fact that uname spits out ppc64le instead of x86_64. So you can't argue the user experience is worse in the same way as, for instance, trying to run a full desktop on a Raspberry Pi (the latter doesn't tend to end well... )

Awesome! (The Talos II, not the Raspberry Pi desktop.) How fast is the Talos II Chrome browser experience relative to whatever x86_64 machine you used to use? Care to list what the specs on the old machine were and a seat-of-the-pants comparison between them?

Have you had any problems with other applications or platforms?

[madscientist159]

I imagine a pretty significant portion of System76 customers play Steam games or at least gog.com games, which means a CPU architecture outside x86_64 won't fly. So this didn't surprise me at all.

The segment of the market that both prizes freedom over gaming convenience and is also able and willing to spend moderate amounts of money is probably too small for System76 to profitably target. (Or maybe even to 'break even' target.)

Our experience shows something different, but maybe System76's market is as you say. In any case, then don't add an open enclosure to a closed system and claim it's an open hardware PC.

Awesome! (The Talos II, not the Raspberry Pi desktop.) How fast is the Talos II Chrome browser experience relative to whatever x86_64 machine you used to use? Care to list what the specs on the old machine were and a seat-of-the-pants comparison between them?

Have you had any problems with other applications or platforms?

It's fast. Real fast. My old box was a PSP-free Opteron socket C32 @3.8GHz (dual hex core), which I still have just for Steam games. No personal data touches that box any more. My Talos II is a 16 core box also at 3.8GHz, but uses a ton less power and feels a lot snappier.

Only problem continues to be Firefox. Can't wait for the JIT engine that Cameron is working on.

[Michael_S]

Our experience shows something different, but maybe System76's market is as you say. In any case, then don't add an open enclosure to a closed system and claim it's an open hardware PC.

I'm not defending their marketing. I'm disappointed by it too. I'm just not surprised they went that route.

It's fast. Real fast. My old box was a PSP-free Opteron socket C32 @3.8GHz (dual hex core), which I still have just for Steam games. No personal data touches that box any more. My Talos II is a 16 core box also at 3.8GHz, but uses a ton less power and feels a lot snappier.

Only problem continues to be Firefox. Can't wait for the JIT engine that Cameron is working on.

Thanks. Cool. I know this is off the main thread topic, but I just found https://www.talospace.com/ and started following it. The main Raptor Engineering site is a little light on the kind of stuff I'd like to see about their products. I just wrote an email to them about it: install walk-throughs, recommendations for sound, brief videos of routine use, etc...

[NateHubbard]

^ Sounds like someone is not the target demographic. Why pay $40k for a new BMW when you can buy a used honda civic for $9k?

I think it was more like, "Why pay $40k for a Honda Civic when you can buy a BMW?"

[stalkerg]

It's really good for the start! At least better when common vendors. But I wait for at least open bios implementation it's possible even now. (I hope it will be next step)

[vgplayer]

I really like the case design. I wish it was offered by itself or even as a barebones kit. I'm finding it hard to justify the pricing on many of the components. Also why can't I get a Vega card on the Thelio but can on the Thelio Major and Massive. Based on the other offerings I'm sure the reference cards will fit just fine.

[Danielsan]

These computer are hugely expensive... I will not spend $4K to run POP!_Os or Ubuntu... and with $4K I can build a Blender farm.
This Trend Setting Marketing strategy doesn't fit well at all for Linux and OpenSource computers, I hardly believe that these prices will lead any selling, most probably in the next months we will see these prices dramatically dropping down.

[kpedersen]

I hardly believe that these prices will lead any selling, most probably in the next months we will see these prices dramatically dropping down.

It will potentially be a commercial failure. The worst part is that now businesses are going to say that "open hardware" is not profitable just because these fools approached it in the completely wrong (and frankly fraudulent) way.

I wouldn't be surprised this was just one big pre-emptive front by a company like Apple or ARM to try to kill or discredit open hardware (such as RISC-V) before it becomes a threat.

[madscientist159]

It's really good for the start! At least better when common vendors. But I wait for at least open bios implementation it's possible even now. (I hope it will be next step)

No, it won't be. They chose the x86 ecosystem, which doesn't have the concept of an open "BIOS" any more for the most part. That's why Google et. al. are starting to work on LinuxBoot etc. instead of true coreboot; the amount of signed, proprietary, black box firmware needed to start any modern x86 system is now larger than some of the early Linux kernels (!).

Again, that's why I say select something else. POWER gets you full firmware source, low level documentation, owner control, and schematics, but the form factor doesn't go below desktop right now. Certain specific ARM SoCs get you full owner control sans GPU, but the devices are designed and made in countries that might not have the best security track record, plus they tend to be weak and those available in larger form factors (servers) are back to the locked / signed / binary-only firmware situation. RISC-V is fragmented and weak, but in theory it could be the most open solution (this would however require silicon vendor and ODM/OEM decisions to create a fully open SoC and mainboard, sadly this has been very hit and miss in practice). However, putting all the shards together, it's clear that whatever x86 box you are using now can be replaced with something, if you're not locked to proprietary software. That's not a bad place to be; there was a time when that would not have been possible.

[isantop]

It will potentially be a commercial failure. The worst part is that now businesses are going to say that "open hardware" is not profitable just because these fools approached it in the completely wrong (and frankly fraudulent) way.

I wouldn't be surprised this was just one big pre-emptive front by a company like Apple or ARM to try to kill or discredit open hardware (such as RISC-V) before it becomes a threat.

There's nothing fraudulent about it. Thelio (the computer) is OSHWA-certified Open Hardware (US000142).

We're definitely open to System76 including our mainboards, etc. in their product line. The result of that would be a truly made in the US and open, owner controllable PC -- a great step forward! Just waiting on System76 to accept our challenge and start working on it.

I think that would be awesome! Do you happen know if there are any Mini-ITX form factor Talos Motherboards?