GraalVM 21.2 Released With New Optimizations, Better Linux AArch64 Support

[uid313]

Imho, despite their popularity, they're both pretty poor choices in 2021. Today's hot topics are the cloud and IoT. Fat, slow runtimes aren't a good fit for either.

There is .NET 5 and .NET Core 3.1 which I think have smaller runtimes than old .NET Framework.
Before there were aslo .NET Micro Framework, but I don't know what happened to that.

[uid313]

Why would people who rely on the JVM be interested in C#? GraalVM is interesting because it departs from the JVM by being written in Java rather than C++, which opens it up to easier modification and possible performance improvements in the future. It also supports a form of native compilation that makes Java more suitable in resource constrained environments, or where fast startup is a priority.

Because people interested in JVM might be interested in it for the reason to write a language that runs atop of it, but they can use CLR for that too.

I believe .NET have native compilation too.

There's nothing wrong with Microsoft's technology, but it pretty much limits you to C#. On the JVM you can run Java, but also Kotlin, Clojure, and Scala. If you are in that ecosystem, there is no benefit to using C#.

JVM also has VB.NET and F#. It also have or had IronPython, and it used to have IronRuby.

[Jabberwocky]

I don't currently use JVM/Graal/Java/kotlin/C# for development. I have tested GraalVM a few months ago for an application which gave a decent improvement over Oracle's JVM.

.NET, BCL, Roslyn and OmniSharp (for VSCode) *is* fully open under an MIT license, on GitHub, where anyone can send in a pull request, and ported to Linux and macOS, it's not Mono. Also, MS bought Mono years ago, they're currently using it for Android development, but proper Linux .NET is the original .NET, .NET 5, originally .NET Core.

Hasn't a part of Mono become part of .NET 5?

And .NET is used in plenty of places, StackOverflow is .NET. And of course MS uses .NET extensively. They wouldn't dogfood it if it wasn't useful

I don't agree with these types of comparisons. Isn't that like saying PHP is good because Facebook used it, or even react js these days. Perl's Catalyst web framework because it was used by a popular adult video website. To me it sounds like argumentum ad populum. IMO StackOverflow isn't the most complicated project out there and MS has a clear conflict of interest. It's like saying golang is good because Google uses it. Why do you think that StackOverflow or MS is a credible example?

I know from my own experience that Windows is used in the financial industry due to the contracts that MS provides. Others like AWS and IBM offers good support contracts just like MS, but what makes MS so attractive to business is the liability they provide and how far that responsibility goes. Another big aspect is the qualification standards and ease of hiring processes. Linux and others does not have such a widely marketed and commercially successful qualification businesses like MS does (similar to what Cisco had). Many banking systems in my country use MS for this reason. It's not about what is scientifically better. The politics and the business models play a significant role in my limited experience. One could argue the same about Linux's popularity regarding it's model since it's free and that's why it's popular. That is exactly why I think these types of comparisons are not that great.

I would much rather use what is being taught at respected educational institutions. From my limited experience Linux and even bytecode was covered more than the MS counterparts in CS, but that was a long time ago. I would like to know what's being taught in CS these days.

[krzyzowiec]

That is pure delusion and C# has always been a widely popular language despite it's closed-source nature, exactly like Visual Basic before it. Go ahead and look at modern statistics and you'll see C# constantly going up and down with C++, C# is far from "dying", in fact it's growing in popularity, go ask GitHub and StackOverflow.

Come on man, respond to my post, not some fictional post you imagined in your head. I never said C# was dying or unpopular. My point is that it could have been in Java's position right now, and it's clearly not.

You really shouldn't think everyone thinks exactly the same way you do. You may be surprised to hear this, but, believe it or not, most developers do not, and, especially in the past, did not care about open source or open platforms, they just wanted whatever had the most support and libraries.

Well obviously the platforms that are more open will have more support and libraries, because they get more adoption. Look at all the libraries developed by various companies for Java. Do you think they would have done that if it were proprietary? Of course not.

Again, please stop assuming a corporation or software platform is "unviable" because of your deluded political opinions, they make no sense and actively clash with reality.

Hey buddy, I live in reality. In reality, I never said "unviable". That's something you just came up with to attack lol, because I guess you are triggered that I didn't say C# is number 1...

And don't even joke about the JVM being a good runtime. Yes, it performs great, and at the same level of the CLR, but I constantly hear people say it's insecure and not worth installing anymore. Scala and Clojure are popular because of Android, along with the entire JVM. I remember when I started Java way back in 2011 because of Minecraft giving it a bit of a boost in popularity and all of my non-programmer friends were like "get that away from me, I'm not installing that thing, it asks for updates every day". The JVM would be dead today if it wasn't for Google being yet-another-company falling for Oracle's marketing. I just pray they finally finish Fuchsia so they can finally sunset the JVM's parasitic existence on Android (which I'm sure they're all-too-excited to do after Oracle made them yet another target in their "sue anyone who uses our products" campaign).

No, Scala and Clojure are popular because of backend web development. Everyone is using Kotlin for Android. Google already switched from Java to Kotlin so they aren't worried about legal attacks from Oracle anymore.

[krzyzowiec]

"I'm with Nim" or I'll go go but what would the equivalent graalVM program look like? you can compile to .exe/bin ? 1 file copy distribute a program ?

It's both. You can use the traditional runtime model of HotSpot VM (but with Graal) and gain things like dynamic JIT compilation and other dynamic features (but then you need the runtime), or you can compile into a single binary and distribute that. The latter is known as Graal Native Image.

[mdedetrich]

And don't even joke about the JVM being a good runtime. Yes, it performs great, and at the same level of the CLR, but I constantly hear people say it's insecure and not worth installing anymore. Scala and Clojure are popular because of Android, along with the entire JVM. I

Im sorry but as a pretty much fulltime Scala developer for 10+ years now this is complete and utter bullocks. For starters no one uses Clojure on Android because the APK's it creates would be ginormous because of the absence of decent DCE/optimizations (this is due to the fact that Clojure is a dynamic language), you are looking at a basic Hello world type app being 5mb+. Scala on the other hand has the issue that it heavily relies on features like anonymous functions, which only got natively added to the JVM 1.8 and Android is still stuck on 1.6.

No serious person uses Scala/Clojure for Android development, its either Java or Kotlin there. Scala/Clojure are primarily used in data science/backend services