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  • #41
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Is this really a thing? An issue?
    Ok, so you don't have much experience in programming. Don't lie to yourself in pretending you have, that's not the only tell-tale quote.

    Nothing wrong with lack of experience, that's something that only time can bring.

    Even if you make such an obvious mistake, compiler will warn you about it. I don't see the problem and it's obvious as fuck.

    [...]

    Only if you hire the trash el cheapo "programmers" and then have the burden to deal with their low quality brain.

    Seriously there's no other way I can put this for mistaking = and ==

    [...]

    No need to apologize, Rust dummies deserve it.
    Lambasting other people, including highly skilled and experienced language designers and compiler writers, on a subject that you seemingly just encountered ? That's pretty bad.

    Throwing insults at large groups of people in each of your posts ? That's unacceptable.

    I don't know if you or your company manages to find decent programmers, but you should realize that these posts put you instantly in the "low tech skill - don't hire as programmer" and (more importantly) "horrible personal skill - don't hire for any job description" categories. It's never too late to change. Please be polite, constructive, humble.

    Seriously, where are the moderators ?

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by moltonel View Post

      Ok, so you don't have much experience in programming. Don't lie to yourself in pretending you have, that's not the only tell-tale quote.

      Nothing wrong with lack of experience, that's something that only time can bring.

      Lambasting other people, including highly skilled and experienced language designers and compiler writers, on a subject that you seemingly just encountered ? That's pretty bad.

      Throwing insults at large groups of people in each of your posts ? That's unacceptable.

      I don't know if you or your company manages to find decent programmers, but you should realize that these posts put you instantly in the "low tech skill - don't hire as programmer" and (more importantly) "horrible personal skill - don't hire for any job description" categories. It's never too late to change. Please be polite, constructive, humble.
      Well put. I also want to repeat something you said:

      "It's never too late to change."

      A lot of people don't realize that they can change. You can. There are many ways to do it. One way is:

      Try to become an observer of your own mind. So rather than get caught up in all the mental chatter, try to watch your thoughts happen sometimes. When you successfully do this, you'll quickly realise that you're not your thoughts. It's kinda like your thinking system is just a computer that you are using. A lot of us get caught up in our thoughts and we start to think that we are those thoughts and we have no choice but to follow our thought patterns wherever they take us... which sometimes is towards aggression or even madness. However, there is something greater within us which operates above those thoughts. I don't know what that greater thing actually is and for the sake of this current topic it doesn't really matter. It's just something that is there.

      After you have some practise at being that greater thing (whatever it is) and you can watch your thoughts happen rather than be stuck-in-thought, you may find that when you're next getting angry, stressed, or about to respond aggressively, you can actually catch yourself entering that state of mind and emotion and stop yourself before you speak or act. In that moment you can then decide how you would actually prefer to act, or a way to act that might be better for yourself and everyone. You might even decide you don't want to say anything, which is also OK.

      I'm not just making that stuff up or regurgitating something I heard from some religious group. This is something that has worked for me. It may work for other people too.

      Edit: Here's a quick mental hack. If you want to briefly experience that greater thing and disconnect from your busy mind chatter momentarily do this: stop what you're doing. Gently take in a deep breath through your nose filling your lungs and then slowly release your breath through your mouth over a period of something like 3 seconds. While doing all that try to just internally watch yourself doing it. IE focus on that action. Notice how it can bring you calm and release you from whatever mental pathway you were racing along prior to doing it.
      Last edited by cybertraveler; 01-21-2019, 05:27 PM.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by moltonel View Post
        Ok, so you don't have much experience in programming. Don't lie to yourself in pretending you have, that's not the only tell-tale quote.

        Nothing wrong with lack of experience, that's something that only time can bring.
        Of course, this will result in back-and-forth "no you" response so I'm not even going to bother. Suffice to say that no, my experience does not entail working with low skilled cheap outsourced "programmers".

        Originally posted by moltonel View Post
        Lambasting other people, including highly skilled and experienced language designers and compiler writers, on a subject that you seemingly just encountered ? That's pretty bad.

        Throwing insults at large groups of people in each of your posts ? That's unacceptable.

        I don't know if you or your company manages to find decent programmers, but you should realize that these posts put you instantly in the "low tech skill - don't hire as programmer" and (more importantly) "horrible personal skill - don't hire for any job description" categories. It's never too late to change. Please be polite, constructive, humble.

        Seriously, where are the moderators ?
        I wanted to take you seriously until I saw the last paragraph. Are you butthurt at facts and crying to your mom because your feelings of (lack of) programmer knowledge have been hurt?

        I can promise you one thing though, your pathetic "1 == x" coding style would be instantly lambasted in code review, especially because the compiler (gcc) would complain of it otherwise (warning) unless you put double parentheses around it. Obviously with your "superior experience" you'd definitely already know this, right? Or maybe you have experience with compilers that don't matter in the real world?

        Or maybe you should stop lying to yourself and acting big when it shows. Nevermind the fact that getting such a warning is shameful in the first place but alas, it's still there!


        Your assumption that insults = inexperience is just laughable. I can insult groups of language designers all I want, because they deserve it for catering to the wrong group. Programming requires skill just like any other job, including electrical engineering and such. "Everyone should code" is one of the stupidest movements. I'm not even close to Linus in terms of insults and by that logic he'd be a total rookie. So much bullshit it's unreal.

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        • #44
          cybertraveler Well I'll try to use less insults then although to be fair, nothing I previously said that he quoted was insulting except the "Rust dummies" part, but that's different, as it's my personal gripe with Rust due to fanboys. Obviously it's half jokingly said. "El cheapo" programmers is a fact, whether social justice warriors want to accept it or not. Plain and simple.

          This mentality that "all programmers should be respected" is disgusting to me when some clearly make much more mistakes and need more babysitting (whether from language or from someone else or whatever) in terms of mistakes (not necessarily bad code only). It reduces programming as a job to something accessible to toddlers and no, I'm not ok with it. How would you feel if your line of work was suddenly dumbed down for the common masses? (assuming you have a high-skilled job)

          Even worse when they have to respect all the rookies "equally" due to stupid SJW mentality which trashes on my skill even more.

          And I don't even hate C++ (that much) so I'm not even close to Linus in terms of hate, nor skill. Lastly, he's not such a special exception as some think (i.e. all other "skilled" programmers must be super nice guys in comparisons, which is bullshit, they just appear to be when they're not anonymous online).

          Comment


          • #45
            Weasel

            I'm not going to tell you how to be, what to think or how to behave. Although, personally I do prefer to see less insults thrown around.

            I do recognise that people insult you too.

            There's an awful lot of drama over here sometimes :P

            It can sometimes take time for people to figure out how they can express themselves, be authentic, be truthful... but also be considerate of others, be polite and create and friendly and enjoyable atmosphere.

            Personally I like the "golden rule" as a guiding principle of how to be. It is:
            Don't treat others in a way that you wouldn't want to be treated.


            It's not perfect, but it works most of the time.

            For example: if you don't like people belittling you or insulting you, then don't belittle or insult others.

            Also: that breathing thing I mentioned really does work :P I recommend it to you and anyone else here who gets stressed or caught up in drama and flame wars sometimes. I use it all the time.

            Comment


            • #46
              modern programming was designed to be readable by a human. If your language is dyslexic it might be a bit flawed by design. Oh and if you want 100% fool proof memory safety maybe remove the problem between chair and keyboard. And the beauty of C++ is you can easily write a custom allocator that does the same as jemalloc without changing the whole programs allocator.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by cybertraveler View Post
                Weasel

                I'm not going to tell you how to be, what to think or how to behave. Although, personally I do prefer to see less insults thrown around.

                I do recognise that people insult you too.

                There's an awful lot of drama over here sometimes :P

                It can sometimes take time for people to figure out how they can express themselves, be authentic, be truthful... but also be considerate of others, be polite and create and friendly and enjoyable atmosphere.

                Personally I like the "golden rule" as a guiding principle of how to be. It is:
                Don't treat others in a way that you wouldn't want to be treated.



                It's not perfect, but it works most of the time.

                For example: if you don't like people belittling you or insulting you, then don't belittle or insult others.

                Also: that breathing thing I mentioned really does work :P I recommend it to you and anyone else here who gets stressed or caught up in drama and flame wars sometimes. I use it all the time.
                Well, I get what you're saying and agree with most of it. I usually insult groups of people generically (again, except those related to Rust, those are just a personal gripe due to fanboys on the forum and are not 100% serious!), like how I used here "el cheapo" programmers and so on (but wasn't really vulgar tho). Until I get insulted then I respond back in kind, probably not really wise, lol. I need to exercise self-restraint better.

                BTW people have this misconception that people like me have this aura of superiority and we tend to belittle others. Fact is, I actually do treat people (refering to the "el cheapo" comment here) how I'd want to be treated.

                If, for example, an electrical engineer I respect would have to dumb himself down so that I, with very little EE experience, can understand what he's doing, I would feel ashamed for creating this situation. And people agree with this! But no, in programming, somehow it's different. People are blaming the skilled programmer for not being "dumb enough", like WTF.

                It just infuriates me to see people belittle the programming jobs so much "for dummies" (literally it's what they even say in book titles) and then claim it's how things "should be". You ONLY see this kind of crap in software circles. I just state my opinion that I fully disagree with this idiocy. Why is programming so special? I just want it to be treated like any other high-skilled job instead of blasting the experienced/skilled programmers down to the level of those who just aren't fit to programming.

                Dumbing down languages is part of it.

                Just so you know, I do not mind dumbing down something if it has literally zero overhead. So before anyone starts with "why not just code in hex instead of assembler", that qualifies here. And obviously asm has many shortcomings, like not being portable (not just across CPU families, but CPU designs, can't just be "recompiled" with different scheduling), so HLLs are usually the way to go.

                But still, a proper programmer should definitely know assembly IMO, even if he doesn't use it much. A fact lost in so may of today's "web devs" or "Java hipsters".

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by cj.wijtmans View Post
                  modern programming was designed to be readable by a human.
                  ALL proper programming languages are designed to be readable by a human. Even assembly (else you'd write it in hex opcodes instead of mnemonics).

                  But you should not assume that an UNSKILLED human must be able to comprehend them. That's the most important thing. Just like any intellectual job, it requires qualification and proper skill. I'm sick of people thinking that anyone, no matter their skill set, should be able to "read code easily". (this is one reason Pascal/Delphi is so verbose and so shit btw). And I'm sick of them perpetuating this policy everywhere in programming circles.

                  Obviously it's good if it's more readable for no more overhead, but in most cases, making it "easier" for a human directly translates to more overhead in the result, so that's a tradeoff (I tend towards lowering the overhead, as I believe in software (end product) quality that millions of users run).
                  Last edited by Weasel; 01-22-2019, 07:29 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                    ALL proper programming languages are designed to be readable by a human. Even assembly (else you'd write it in hex opcodes instead of mnemonics).

                    But you should not assume that an UNSKILLED human must be able to comprehend them. That's the most important thing. Just like any intellectual job, it requires qualification and proper skill. I'm sick of people thinking that anyone, no matter their skill set, should be able to "read code easily". (this is one reason Pascal/Delphi is so verbose and so shit btw). And I'm sick of them perpetuating this policy everywhere in programming circles.

                    Obviously it's good if it's more readable for no more overhead, but in most cases, making it "easier" for a human directly translates to more overhead in the result, so that's a tradeoff (I tend towards lowering the overhead, as I believe in software (end product) quality that millions of users run).
                    well by your logic we might as well program in 0s and 1s since we can "read" it. I dont think you understand what "readable" is.

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                    • #50
                      btrfs and rust (maybe systemd too) are among the most discussed topics here. But in a sad way. Those words somehow unearth the flaming trolls out of their graves.

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