Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Low-Latency Kernel For Linux Gaming

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • phoronix
    started a topic A Low-Latency Kernel For Linux Gaming

    A Low-Latency Kernel For Linux Gaming

    Phoronix: A Low-Latency Kernel For Linux Gaming

    Within the Phoronix Forums and elsewhere it has been brought up that using a low-latency kernel can improve the Linux gaming performance, but is this really the case? In this article are some simple benchmarks comparing the stock Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "generic" Linux kernel compared to Ubuntu's low-latency flavor of Linux.

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=17506

  • Paradox Ethereal
    replied
    PS: The Unreal 4k + 128x AA video is now here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dx6dbiTm8w&t=1s

    Plays well on a low-jitter tuned windows

    Leave a comment:


  • Paradox Ethereal
    replied
    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post

    I'm not sure if this post is related to anything going on here in this thread or just a nice aside but in case it is a reflection on the thread I'd like to assure you while there does oddly enough exist passion for somethings as mundane as an operating system the only "fighting and violence" that is less than productive is done by those who actually "have a dog in this fight" mainly Microsoft since for them billions of dollars are at stake. For us lowly user/admins we actually have little stake in the Windows /vs Allus Warfare and there certainly is no violence among us that I know of, nor should their be. For us it's just a debate and if done right something each side can learn from.. Conflict is valuable. Violence, not so much.

    FWIW it is my best guess that not too far off nobody will know or care about an operating system since computers and their cooperation are just too important for Tower of Babel squabbles at that level.
    I am just trying to make a nice point. But indeed if low-jitter was understood, as the thread was about, I think OS wars would be much less common, since it is a very ultimate thing. Maybe at some point, this will generally be understood.

    Leave a comment:


  • aht0
    replied
    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    Interesting but one interpretation of that is pandering to the lowest common denominator ie: - dumbing down the intranet for casual users. I don't see how that applies to this thread.
    Wrong. You are dumbing it down as "only publicly accessible servers count" - "If majority of them run Linux, then it means Linux for you that rules everywhere".

    Server remains server, be it serving local infrastructure or being connected to Internet. Former simply does not appear in YOUR statistics at all, although they maybe be 2-3x more numerous as latter in infrastructure of any given organization.

    How that applies to this thread? Remember, you brought up W3Tech statistics trying to prove with it that Linux is absolutely everywhere. Which absolutely ignores huge bunch of servers running without public internet access in internal networks.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    I agree that on the whole BSD is more consistent with Unix philosophy and I hope your reference to Linux having departed from that path refers mainly to sytsmd and it's dependencies (which BTW doesn't affect me heavily since I use Slackware which uses none of systemd's "solutions" and is more OG BSD than modern BSDs when it comes to package management) but even the most systemd ridden, user friendly distro available is vastly less interdependent than processes in Windows exactly because of both the hierarchical nature of the opsys and also it's microkernel.. You pointed out the advantages of "deep integration" which do indeed exist but the cost of that integration is profound and light years away from "do one thing well".
    Not only systemd. Deviation from compatibility and towards Linux-oriented development started years before systemd.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    I find the above an ignorant assumption and not a little condescending. Try? I have been a dedicated and avid gamer for decades and much, if not most of it on Linux. My main box multi-boots and while I did do a lot of re-booting for a few isolated games a decade ago, within that decade it is now to where so many decent games can be played on Linux I just don't miss Windows at all. FWIW I have not only tried Linux I have installed many games that I run in Wine to a 3rd NTFS partition so that I can run the exact same game both Natively and in WINE. Each has it's advantages but more often than not, reduced latency in mouse, keyboard and TCP/IP have Linux feeling more responsive than Windows. Incidentally, for one seemingly well versed in alternatives to Windows how is it that you still refer to WINE as "emulation" when it clearly is not and not just in it's name?
    Nitpicking. It does not really matter if the "linux game" in question runs in a "wine wrapper" or I call it "over emulator". It's not native client, that's the point. Which means - on top of Windows-specific bugs you are going to get Linux-specific issues too. Be the latter ones whatever.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    I already addressed the emulation" reference mistake as untrue and since I also noted a AAA game released just 2 months from the beginning of 2017 in Native Linux (but not yet Mac) at worst it remains to be seen whether Steam Linux gaming and it's effect on game devs ! is dropping or not.
    Thats 1 game you make sound like huge success. Count the overall AAA games being released for PC platform for comparison - in order to keep it in perspective.
    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    It appears that for some reason(s) I have been more successful in Linux Gaming as I prefer it and have had very few issues but a large part of that might well be that despite your forays into alternatives, you obviously still view Windows as inherently better and necessary, like an addiction. I broke that bad habit decades ago which is likely why I wonder how I ever put up with it and gladly flourish on Linux that not only lets me do anything I want to do but literally does nothing I don't instigate. That discipline created a situation of extreme performance and stability since any problem is only one step away since I caused it and nothing was done that I didn't know about nor allow..
    Probably you play games that work to a degree in Linux.

    If I broke that "addiction" I would have nothing to play. If I do not enjoy available games on Linux, they might as well not exist. Gaming's point is to have fun. Not to grind on things you dislike.

    I use Windows purely for gaming and office. It works better there. For the rest (multimedia, web) I use open source which has pretty much quality comparable to windows with some advantages even (Win10 for example does not allow ripping my DVDs using Handbreak - FreeBSD allows me)
    Last edited by aht0; 06-28-2017, 12:23 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ParisStaltic
    replied
    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    Very well.

    Majority of Linux fanatics/aplogists-whatever in Phoronix do not make this distinction, putting everything into same kettle and calling the whole shebang Linux. I assumed you are similar.
    Isn't that what I just said? or at least a modified version of that? It may end up that due to the overly complicated interactions necessary and inherent to microkernels, that the actual fight at it's most basic is between microkernels and monolithic. It may be worthy of note that despite a massive quantity of man/hours in the Linux world, monolithic won that battle. The KISS method is almost always going to win out.

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    The exact reason why I used Spiceworks data. W3Techs statistics is purely "online" (showing servers with public access) in it's nature. It does not reflect servers sitting in Intranets at all. Spiceworks data shows Internet-connected and Intranet servers both.
    Interesting but one interpretation of that is pandering to the lowest common denominator ie: - dumbing down the intranet for casual users. I don't see how that applies to this thread.

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    It is shackled in a multiple ways. Unable to use code licensed under incompatible open-source license (like CDDL). Unable to change it's license unless having the agreement of all it's devs.
    Nothing is so simple as to be ALL good or ALL bad. In this case I view the above as a well-justified tradeoff.... much more important Benefits relative to Cost.

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    I do not quite get the PAE talk. Even Windows 2003 supported it as far as I remember it. I used it for a while as a replacement for WindowsXP (there was method for turning Win2003 into "workstation mode")
    I don't care to discuss minor details as the point was by nature proprietary comes with more limitations and restrictions in which the User is commonly the one that takes the hit and pays the price, while corporations just repackage and market a "new" product as an "upgrade" that we are expected to pay for..

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    You should not quote "do one thing and do it well" related to Linux. It applies to BSD's, not to Linux for a long time now.
    I agree that on the whole BSD is more consistent with Unix philosophy and I hope your reference to Linux having departed from that path refers mainly to sytsmd and it's dependencies (which BTW doesn't affect me heavily since I use Slackware which uses none of systemd's "solutions" and is more OG BSD than modern BSDs when it comes to package management) but even the most systemd ridden, user friendly distro available is vastly less interdependent than processes in Windows exactly because of both the hierarchical nature of the opsys and also it's microkernel.. You pointed out the advantages of "deep integration" which do indeed exist but the cost of that integration is profound and light years away from "do one thing well".

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    Please, DO TRY gaming on Linux. Just try. Something competitive online. Online against other human players, all the little issues crawl open fastest. Single player you can put on pause and shrug the problems off, multiplayer you cannot. You can argue endlessly, nothing beats the experience, or frustration of trying.
    I find the above an ignorant assumption and not a little condescending. Try? I have been a dedicated and avid gamer for decades and much, if not most of it on Linux. My main box multi-boots and while I did do a lot of re-booting for a few isolated games a decade ago, within that decade it is now to where so many decent games can be played on Linux I just don't miss Windows at all. FWIW I have not only tried Linux I have installed many games that I run in Wine to a 3rd NTFS partition so that I can run the exact same game both Natively and in WINE. Each has it's advantages but more often than not, reduced latency in mouse, keyboard and TCP/IP have Linux feeling more responsive than Windows. Incidentally, for one seemingly well versed in alternatives to Windows how is it that you still refer to WINE as "emulation" when it clearly is not and not just in it's name?

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    Heh, teach your gramma suck eggs. Question would be, what is your time worth. From certain point, it's easier to reinstall.
    IMHO it is easier and valid to reinstall Windows than fix it but I have not been in that condition with Linux in over 15 years. The time factor is one of learning and experience. Since we were specifically talking about borking a graphics driver install, I assure you I can wantonly cause such a problem and fix it without reinstalling before anyone can reinstall-fix a similar Windows problem by a time measured in hours. At the very worst that would take me 10-15 minutes in Linux, commonly far less..

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    Majority of which run over emulation layer with lessened performance. Very few have true Linux clients. Steam Linux gaming seems to be dropping, not increasing
    I already addressed the emulation" reference mistake as untrue and since I also noted a AAA game released just 2 months from the beginning of 2017 in Native Linux (but not yet Mac) at worst it remains to be seen whether Steam Linux gaming and it's effect on game devs ! is dropping or not.

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    If you do not play or have knowledge about gaming outside of what you could google, why argue me. Believe me, I've tried gaming on Linux. Windows works for it most of the time, Linux does not. Not if you want to play against other human beings who use all the little issues you have against you. Single player gaming on Linux is not that bad IF you get the game running.

    Outside gaming, for the rest of things I use FreeBSD, Manjaro OpenRC or OpenSUSE. In that order of frequency. OSes I am playing with, just to test them out, do not count.
    It appears that for some reason(s) I have been more successful in Linux Gaming as I prefer it and have had very few issues but a large part of that might well be that despite your forays into alternatives, you obviously still view Windows as inherently better and necessary, like an addiction. I broke that bad habit decades ago which is likely why I wonder how I ever put up with it and gladly flourish on Linux that not only lets me do anything I want to do but literally does nothing I don't instigate. That discipline created a situation of extreme performance and stability since any problem is only one step away since I caused it and nothing was done that I didn't know about nor allow..

    Again, if you're happy where you are that's great. I prefer Freedom and it's cost, Responsibility to Convenience and it's cost. Indentured Servitude.
    Last edited by ParisStaltic; 06-28-2017, 07:43 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ParisStaltic
    replied
    Originally posted by Paradox Uncreated View Post
    One day, we shall have a good OS, and an internet culture without fighting and violence.
    I'm not sure if this post is related to anything going on here in this thread or just a nice aside but in case it is a reflection on the thread I'd like to assure you while there does oddly enough exist passion for somethings as mundane as an operating system the only "fighting and violence" that is less than productive is done by those who actually "have a dog in this fight" mainly Microsoft since for them billions of dollars are at stake. For us lowly user/admins we actually have little stake in the Windows /vs Allus Warfare and there certainly is no violence among us that I know of, nor should their be. For us it's just a debate and if done right something each side can learn from.. Conflict is valuable. Violence, not so much.

    FWIW it is my best guess that not too far off nobody will know or care about an operating system since computers and their cooperation are just too important for Tower of Babel squabbles at that level.

    Last edited by ParisStaltic; 06-28-2017, 06:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • aht0
    replied
    Former would presume shift in development paradigm. Latter change in the human nature.
    Last edited by aht0; 06-27-2017, 05:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paradox Ethereal
    replied
    One day, we shall have a good OS, and an internet culture without fighting and violence.

    Leave a comment:


  • aht0
    replied
    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    @ aht0 - Since it was not my position nor desire to "measure e-dicks" or trash Windows, let alone be a party to yet another derailment on to the OpSys Flame War "Chev Rulz! Ford Sux!" track, I'll keep this brief by staying as focused as possible On Topic .
    Very well.
    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    Since you claim considerable experience with Linux how is it that you don't know the old saw that "Linux IS the (monolithic) Kernel" and all the rest is just distributions ie- packages of init systems, package managers, and DE/WMs along with niche apps?
    Majority of Linux fanatics/aplogists-whatever in Phoronix do not make this distinction, putting everything into same kettle and calling the whole shebang Linux. I assumed you are similar.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    Rather than go into detail about statistics, agendas, testing means etc. not to mention Spiceworks "dog in that fight" here's a more recently updated thread from Wikipedia on Global Market shares divided into many categories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...rating_systems . Please note that in April 2017 W3Techs reported ~66% Linux and 34% Windows, for whatever that's worth. The point was a simple fact that Linux operates on more platforms and is more customizable for specific use than any other OpSys.
    The exact reason why I used Spiceworks data. W3Techs statistics is purely "online" (showing servers with public access) in it's nature. It does not reflect servers sitting in Intranets at all. Spiceworks data shows Internet-connected and Intranet servers both.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    Additionally it is not shackled by licensing agreements as proprietary systems are (though does suffer some loss for the exact same reason - money) a good example of which is why 32bit Windows is limited to only 4GB of RAM when PAE could have jumped that up by orders of magnitude.
    It is shackled in a multiple ways. Unable to use code licensed under incompatible open-source license (like CDDL). Unable to change it's license unless having the agreement of all it's devs.

    I do not quite get the PAE talk. Even Windows 2003 supported it as far as I remember it. I used it for a while as a replacement for WindowsXP (there was method for turning Win2003 into "workstation mode")

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    It is true that some distros seem headed to "all eggs in one basket" but even the worst has a very long way to go to requiring that every app come with it's own .dlls, deposit itself in one specific directory and submit to The Registry. Cathedral and Bazaar doesn't just describe the community, but the original philosophy and design imperatives in Unix of app isolation "do one thing and do it well" and link with text streams as opposed to the MCP-like (yeah, a Tron reference) Ruler All and Lock it Up
    You should not quote "do one thing and do it well" related to Linux. It applies to BSD's, not to Linux for a long time now.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    Most importantly your statement (or quote... can't quite tell which) that .. is by no means an objectively true statement. One can look right here on Phoronix to see tests which show that in most cases Linux graphics drivers are on a par with Windows and no special jumping thru hoops is required to justify your "even"..
    Please, DO TRY gaming on Linux. Just try. Something competitive online. Online against other human players, all the little issues crawl open fastest. Single player you can put on pause and shrug the problems off, multiplayer you cannot. You can argue endlessly, nothing beats the experience, or frustration of trying.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    Regarding "one update may fuck it up beyond all repair" is a lie. Since Linux is a monolithic kernel and the boot process is user controllable it is easily repaired by anyone who bothers to find out how. Those that fall back to FUBAR re installing are just those brainwashed by Windows methodology and haven't learned that Linux is especially different in this regard. A graphics driver implementation is easily dumped back to VESA so that booting at the very least to command line is always an option, where the borked driver install can be removed, repaired, or replaced in mere minutes. Linux has more than one layer of "Safe Boot". FWIW in 15 years of Linux as my main I have had to do this over graphics drivers exactly ZERO TIMES though admittedly I buy only nVidia cards since I don't resent their problem with Open Source and embrace their excellent support of alternate OpSyses. I use the manufacturer's install binary and it always performs beautifully, asking me f I want some options or warning me if anything seems a problem.
    Heh, teach your gramma suck eggs. Question would be, what is your time worth. From certain point, it's easier to reinstall.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    Regarding games, while it is still true that many AAA titles are crippled or even impossible in Linux that number grows less every year. Steam and Wine have both been "game changers" and it is worthy of note that Gabe Newell's Steam as well as increased Linux Desktop usage is changing many game developers position on Linux support. It is worthy of note that Square Enix's most recent Deus Ex had a Linux release within a few months of the other platforms while the Mac version is still MIA.
    Majority of which run over emulation layer with lessened performance. Very few have true Linux clients. Steam Linux gaming seems to be dropping, not increasing.

    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
    If you prefer Windows it is no skin off my nose. I readily admit that Microsoft has carved out a valid and important niche so you're welcome to it. Go negative and spread ridiculous FUD about Linux though and we're going toe-to-toe.
    If you do not play or have knowledge about gaming outside of what you could google, why argue me. Believe me, I've tried gaming on Linux. Windows works for it most of the time, Linux does not. Not if you want to play against other human beings who use all the little issues you have against you. Single player gaming on Linux is not that bad IF you get the game running.

    Outside gaming, for the rest of things I use FreeBSD, Manjaro OpenRC or OpenSUSE. In that order of frequency. OSes I am playing with, just to test them out, do not count.
    Last edited by aht0; 06-26-2017, 06:17 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paradox Ethereal
    replied
    GNU culture is the same I see.. Atleast the Amiga had ultra-low latency with its audio chip. They got it right on a 7.14Mhz CPU. With An OS, multitasking several apps etc. And no slowdowns or glitches when switching etc. And Without an OS, even the c64 could do low-latency audio - lol. There is just something "wrong" with modern OSs who fail to have codepaths that enable similar structures to what goes on here.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X