SDL2 Reverts Its Wayland Preference - Goes Back To X11 Default

[Quackdoc]

Local phoronix man disagrees with wayland design, goes mental. ah yup, theres birdie alright.

[-MacNuke-]

Won't chime in in a single Wayland related topic any time soon.

Thanks for stopping spreading FUD then.

[mdedetrich]

Fascinating logic. The Linux XFS driver doesn't work on Windows. Could people stop pushing Windows when it's clearly not ready?

Well thats a reductionist fallacy when I see one.

What is this supposed to mean? Literally none of the reasons stated for this reversion have anything to do with the protocol. They literally said that the Wayland support in SDL is stable but they're reverting because of issues with third party software and they were first to point out Nvidia drivers.

The reason that OBS doesn't work properly on Wayland on Nvidia hardware is because Nvidia drivers don't support EGL_NATIVE_RENDERABLE. The reason why Gnome night light doesn't work on Nvidia hardware in Wayland is because the driver doesn't support GAMMA_LUT and according to Nvidia it's part of the reason why Gamescope has issues running on Nvidia hardware either.

The core problem is the very fact that Wayland was released as a protocol with no real implementation backing it. Do note the process of doing this is also historically rare and not that successful. Typically speaking an interface/protocol is derived from a known well working implementation and not the other way around (because a protocol with no real implementation is just pure theory).

The only exception for this are mathematically proven protocols for areas such as networking/leader election (i.e. RAFT consensus algorithm) but thats nothing close to what Wayland does.

The point still remains though, Wayland should not be changed to default unless the protocol and the ecosystem around it area ready which it clearly is not.

Also not sure why there is so much pushback on this, its nothing controversial.

[Vermilion]

Nothing in Fedora 35 uses libwlroots.so.whatever, OK?

Allow me to prove how wrong you are: wlroots-0.14.1-3.fc35.x86_64.rpm
Provides: libwlroots.so.9 / wlroots / wlroots(x86-64)
Required By: cage / hikari / labwc / sway / wayfire / wlroots-devel

To fuck with wlroots, OK?
...
Oh, wait, none of them use wlroots.

I don't see your point, just because you mentioned projects whose developers didn't get involved doesn't mean it's irrelevant or not feasible. There is still Sway, Wayfire, Hikari (FreeBSD), KwinFT... as functional wlroots based compositors. If anything, you should rejoice since someone started the effort of a unified library.

I don't fucking care about the "library" which no one uses and which is not a library. Nothing in Fedora 35 uses libwlroots.so.whatever, OK?

Library is something which is dynamically loaded and is shared between applications. This is not how wlroots was designed - it's meant to be built-in, so essentially it's not a library it's a fucking dump of source code you're free to include.

You're just defining Shared Objects. Libraries could be anything reusable depending on the programming language. And even so, you're still wrong about wlroots.

[jacob]

Why does it matter if he codes? Design decisions that matter if you code are those internal to a project, not to an end user. If a design decision impacts end user then nobody gives a shit if he can code or not.

In fact that's probably the issue here, since Wayland developers (those who develop the protocol I mean) are a bunch of retards who thinks the world revolves around their computing needs and reject any sensible feature request that other users want out of their display server/protocol because they use it on X11.

Claiming "it's not needed" makes them a bunch of lunatic fringe fucks.

The people who develop Wayland are the same people who have been maintaining and developing X11 for over a quarter of a century. In fact the Wayland developers happen to be the ONLY X11 developers left. No-one knows X11 better than them and no-one is better qualified to decide what makes sense for a Linux graphical stack. As has been said a thousand times, Wayland is not intended to be a drop-in replacement for X11. That something worked on X11 means little in terms of whether Wayland should allow it or not. Think of it as replacing DOS with NT or MacOS Classic with OSX. In both cases there were countless tools and entire workflows that became unsupported and unusable, because maintaining them would basically defeat the purpose of moving away from the old system in the first place.

[Myownfriend]

1. Nothing in the protocol specifies it it's just the way it is.

...

I don't fucking care if wayland compositors can be shared between DEs, this does not work and this is not supported by KWin/Mutter/Weston/whatever.

Yes it is. Kwin and Mutter have both been shown to work with other DEs. This first sentence literally contradicts the second. You did this in your last post, too, when you said that Gnome could run on top of Kwin and Plasma could run on top of Mutter if they supported Xorg but they both do support Xorg. Make up your fucking mind.

2. I don't fucking care about Raspberry Pi, I need XFCE under Wayland on my desktop PC. We are here discussing Linux for the PC, so let's fucking stick to it or otherwise you'll tell me how beautiful Android is.

It's no different on desktop. I sent you a link to someone running XFCE on Mutter last year and you promptly ignored it because you're a fucking child.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/qek696/xfce_can_be_run_on_wayland_by_simply_swapping_out/

And here I am in October sending you the same link.

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/wayland-display-server/1287251-wayland-1-20-planned-for-release-in-december?p=1287360#post1287360

3. People who run Gnome under Wayland under Jesus endorsed AMD and Intel GPUs have horrible bugs. Too lazy to find them now. If you really want me, I'll go and find them. Something about lags and refresh rates at the very least.

Sure. Put in some work. That being said, all drivers have bugs. Wayland's issues on Nvidia cards come from lack of support for DRM properties and some EGL extensions. And lets not forget that for a long while Gnome had to support an entirely separate backend to support Nvidia cards and it couldn't support hardware accelerated XWayland until Nvidia finally decided to support a specific kernel feature after years of refusing to.

4. I don't fucking care what you said about NVIDIA, Wayland has issues in itself. Stop subverting the topic for fuck's sake.

birdie: Don't you talk about my baby, Nvidia! They did nothing wrong.

No one is subverting any issues. Wayland has issues. They're just not the issues you think it has though. The ones that are preventing adoption aren't problems with the protocol or it's design.

5. Ad hominem, great.

I'm allowed after spending days of my life correcting you about stuff just to have you a ignore it... like a child.

Overall: 0 arguments for Wayland from you.

From two posts ago...

A Wayland compositor has far less latency without introducing tearing and it offers the ability to have multi-monitor setups with mixed DPIs and refresh rates. You can get something that looks like mixed DPIs on X11 but it looks worse, has far worse performance, and uses more VRAM.

0 arguments against NVIDIA from you.

This entire post mentions the aforementioned EGL extension and a DRM property along with what their lack of support breaks.

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/1319759-sdl2-reverts-its-wayland-preference-goes-back-to-x11-default?p=1319874#post1319874

Have fun in your "Wayland is perfect but NVIDIA!" bubble.

Instead of being the worlds oldest brat, cite me saying that Wayland is perfect.

Actually I promised myself a year or two ago to ignore your posts completely. I've again made a mistake and forgotten about my promise. Sorry, and goodbye.

Bruh, just leave. You dont wanna be here and you're not wanted here lol Besides you might have been answering my posts but you've been ignoring the contents thus aaaall the bullshit you repeat day in, day out for mooonths. You're a ridiculously bratty for someone your age and it's sad lol

[tildearrow]

Won't chime in in a single Wayland related topic any time soon.

Bet you will, one page later or in the next article.
I guess it was really necessary for you to say goodbye three times in a row.

[jacob]

The only problem here is people pushing Wayland when its clearly not ready and in reality NVidia drivers is a tiny part of that problem.

Fascinating logic. The Linux XFS driver doesn't work on Windows. Could people stop pushing Windows when it's clearly not ready?

[CochainComplex]

3. People who run Gnome under Wayland under Jesus endorsed AMD and Intel GPUs have horrible bugs. Too lazy to find them now. If you really want me, I'll go and find them. Something about lags and refresh rates at the very least.

What are you talking about? I'm using wayland on multiple systems iGPU, AMD, Nvidia. at work 2xFHD (90° turned), 1xQHD, 1xUHD (scaling 200%) guess what it works ...since 2 years. on PopOS 20.04 and now 21.10 intel Igpu and luckily since a few month with nvidia 510.

I'm gaming since Ubuntu 19.04 with wayland exclusively on my jesus sent Navi 10. since 20.04 no wayland issue anymore.

My laptop just haswell iGPU is using wayland since <18.04 around 2018 there where some firefox issue - it works fine since around 2019.....

I really don't know how much examples of daily usage and different systems I have to provide. Yes, statisticially there will be people with issues as there are with X11.
And my anecdotal experience is not representative.
But then I have to raise the question what am I doing right that my different systems with even niche configurations are providing me a flawless wayland experience of thousands of hours accumulated over daily usage if I exclude Nvidia ?!?

[jacob]

Sigh.

The very first thing that was named. Nvidia still holding back Wayland adoption.

Could we get some flooding of Nvidia's bug report forum so they finally do something? It's so annoying. It's really so annoying.

To the contrary, let's ignore them completely. On Windows or MacOS they follow the official APIs but on Linux they think the developers and the user base owes something to them, not the other way around. They don't want the Linux market? Fine, their loss. We don't need them.