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SDL2 Reverts Its Wayland Preference - Goes Back To X11 Default

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  • birdie
    replied
    Originally posted by -MacNuke- View Post

    Yeah just like every Xorg WM implements their own compositor on Xorg... mutter, kwin, xfce... everyone has their own compositor on Xorg too. Stop spreading fud
    The fuck you're talking about? Are you even in the topic?

    I can use almost any WM under any DE under Xorg.

    XFWM4 (from XFCE) running KDE? No problems.
    KWin running XFCE? No problems.
    Mutter running KDE? No problems.

    None of them implement the display protocol, none of them reimplement screen settings, keyboard/mouse, locale, systray, drag and drop, screen sharing and casting, and a metric ton of features the Xorg server provides out of the box.

    I've got one fucking configuration for all Xorg/X11 DEs.

    Each fucking compositor under Wayland has its own configuration file and format.

    Anyways, Wayland lovers are so myopic I'm exhausted and out. Won't chime in in a single Wayland related topic any time soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • birdie
    replied
    Originally posted by Vermilion View Post
    Citation needed.
    AFAIK that's just your understanding since wlroots is maintained by one of the core developers working in Wayland.


    Are you deliberately omitting wlroots? It's the closest to what you've been asking so far. A unified library that many Wayland compositors are built on.
    To fuck with wlroots, OK?

    Where's XFWM using wlroots?
    Where's IceWM using wlroots?
    Where's Mutter using wlroots?
    Where's KWin using wlroots?

    Oh, wait, none of them use wlroots. I don't fucking care about the "library" which no one uses and which is not a library. Nothing in Fedora 35 uses libwlroots.so.whatever, OK?

    Library is something which is dynamically loaded and is shared between applications. This is not how wlroots was designed - it's meant to be built-in, so essentially it's not a library it's a fucking dump of source code you're free to include. We've had this conversation a dozen times already and you continue to give me these asinine "arguments" for Wayland: "Ma, 25 years ago we have 25 servers for X11! Ma, Wayland compositors can be shared between different DEs (in reality it's a fucking lie). But, Ma, the wlroots library!"

    It's crap. Period. I'm fucking out.

    Leave a comment:


  • birdie
    replied
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
    How is Gnome's Wayland session just "kinda-OK'ish"? It runs really smoothly and a lot of the remaining issues are because you and I use Nvidia GPUs.
    1. Nothing in the protocol specifies it it's just the way it is. I don't fucking care if wayland compositors can be shared between DEs, this does not work and this is not supported by KWin/Mutter/Weston/whatever.
    2. I don't fucking care about Raspberry Pi, I need XFCE under Wayland on my desktop PC. We are here discussing Linux for the PC, so let's fucking stick to it or otherwise you'll tell me how beautiful Android is.
    3. People who run Gnome under Wayland under Jesus endorsed AMD and Intel GPUs have horrible bugs. Too lazy to find them now. If you really want me, I'll go and find them. Something about lags and refresh rates at the very least.
    4. I don't fucking care what you said about NVIDIA, Wayland has issues in itself. Stop subverting the topic for fuck's sake.
    5. Ad hominem, great.

    Overall: 0 arguments for Wayland from you. 0 arguments against NVIDIA from you.

    Have fun in your "Wayland is perfect but NVIDIA!" bubble.

    Actually I promised myself a year or two ago to ignore your posts completely. I've again made a mistake and forgotten about my promise. Sorry, and goodbye.

    Leave a comment:


  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    The absolute worst thing about Wayland is that it implies and necessitates that each DE must write their own server/compositor implementing a metric ton of features.
    Point us to the part of the protocol that says this.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    This is nightmare. Whoever designed/envisaged this really hates people and Linux users in general.
    Is the surprise that you're actually Kristian Høgsberg? Because you described yourself but Wayland was started by Kristian Høgsberg on his free time when he was with Redhat and the first releases came out when he was with Intel.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    That's why: IceWM wayland support = WONTFIX
    That's why: XFCE - zero support and near zero work towards supporting it.
    XFCE can run a Wayland session when it's run on top of Mutter. I told you this multiple times over the course of months and Raspberry Pi OS does it.

    https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/ras...te-april-2022/

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    That's why: we only have kinda-OK'ish mutter/gnome and buggy/incomplete kde/kwin. And that's it.
    How is Gnome's Wayland session just "kinda-OK'ish"? It runs really smoothly and a lot of the remaining issues are because you and I use Nvidia GPUs.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    And of course it's all BECAUSE OF NVIDIA.
    Hey I just said that... and showed it in previous post that you conveniently ignored lol

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    People who say that are either complete idiots, trolls or haters - or all of it at the same time.
    Or, get this, you're being defensive as an Nvidia fanboy. That's why when someone says this you sound like a 14 year old on XBox Live lol
    Last edited by Myownfriend; 20 April 2022, 03:47 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    On my Fedora Linux I've had a single Xorg server for over two decades now (I started with RedHat 5.2 - no that wasn't RHEL, it was RedHat). You could stop shoving the examples from the long past or other platforms, OK?
    I don't care how long you've been running whatever server. I mentioned those things because you're acting like X11 has always been this one server world, that the protocol facilitates that, and that the Wayland protocol somehow dictates that there be a bunch of different compositors. You've repeated that sentiment many, many times so you clearly have to be told things many, many times.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    ...servers/compositors (which is an asinine idea BTW to combine them because it means everything becomes a lot more prone to crashes
    Again, you don't actually know that. You don't have the proper knowledge to assess that. You just have feelings.

    In your expert opinion, why should they be separate?

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    The fact remains: Wayland has dozens of servers/compositors and there's zero work to unify anything - don't BS me please.
    What needs to be unified?

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    You cannot use KWin with Gnome, you cannot use Mutter with KDE. Under Xorg/X11 both are perfectly possible.
    Those can't both be true. They both still have X11 backends that run atop. Either you can actually mix and match them or X11 and Xorg aren't the magic fairy dust for interoperability that you think they are. It's one or the other.

    As I've mentioned before XFCE can run atop Mutter and it gains the ability to run a Wayland session because of it. Raspberry Pi OS has been doing that for the last few months.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Wayland has nice ideas behind it
    This is a first for you. What ideas do you like?

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    but overall the way it's implemented now it's worse than Xorg.
    How so? I'd love the deets.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    X11/Xorg gives me more freedom and it's more modularized than Wayland/Whatever compositor you wanna throw in.
    It works worse though. You're gaining the ability to use Xorg with different WMs and compositors, but it works worse. A Wayland compositor has far less latency without introducing tearing and it offers the ability to have multi-monitor setups with mixed DPIs and refresh rates. You can get something that looks like mixed DPIs on X11 but it looks worse, has far worse performance, and uses more VRAM.

    On my Pi 400 I run Ubuntu 22.04 using Gnome 42 hooked up to a 1440p monitor. Under an Xorg session I can't move a window around or enter overview at full frame rate. it dips to something close to 30 fps. I determined this by just filming my screen at 60 fps while moving a window. The window seemed to update roughly every two frames. I could fix this by overclocking the GPU though. I got full frame rates at stock clocks in a Wayland session, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vermilion
    replied
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    The absolute worst thing about Wayland is that it implies and necessitates that each DE must write their own server/compositor implementing a metric ton of features.
    Citation needed.
    AFAIK that's just your understanding since wlroots is maintained by one of the core developers working in Wayland.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    That's why: we only have kinda-OK'ish mutter/gnome and buggy/incomplete kde/kwin. And that's it.
    Are you deliberately omitting wlroots? It's the closest to what you've been asking so far. A unified library that many Wayland compositors are built on.

    Leave a comment:


  • -MacNuke-
    replied
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    The absolute worst thing about Wayland is that it implies and necessitates that each DE must write their own server/compositor implementing a metric ton of features.
    Yeah just like every Xorg WM implements their own compositor on Xorg... mutter, kwin, xfce... everyone has their own compositor on Xorg too. Stop spreading fud

    Leave a comment:


  • birdie
    replied
    And of course it's all BECAUSE OF NVIDIA.

    People who say that are either complete idiots, trolls or haters - or all of it at the same time.

    Leave a comment:


  • birdie
    replied
    The absolute worst thing about Wayland is that it implies and necessitates that each DE must write their own server/compositor implementing a metric ton of features.

    This is nightmare. Whoever designed/envisaged this really hates people and Linux users in general.

    That's why: IceWM wayland support = WONTFIX
    That's why: XFCE - zero support and near zero work towards supporting it.
    That's why: we only have kinda-OK'ish mutter/gnome and buggy/incomplete kde/kwin. And that's it.

    Leave a comment:


  • birdie
    replied
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

    X11 now has a single server...sort of. If XWayland and XQuarts are part of the Xserver git but they are different from Xorg. Before Xorg was Xfree86 which is what Xorg forked from and before that there was a number of other implementations that you could even find on the Wikipedia like Cygwin/X, Exceed, MKS X/Server, Reflection X, X-Win32, Xming, WeirdX, Android X Server, etc.

    I'm not sure that Wayland has anywhere near two dozen compositors but maybe I'm mistaken.
    On my Fedora Linux I've had a single Xorg server for over two decades now (I started with RedHat 5.2 - no that wasn't RHEL, it was RedHat). You could stop shoving the examples from the long past or other platforms, OK?

    The fact remains: Wayland has dozens of servers/compositors (which is an asinine idea BTW to combine them because it means everything becomes a lot more prone to crashes) and there's zero work to unify anything - don't BS me please. You cannot use KWin with Gnome, you cannot use Mutter with KDE. Under Xorg/X11 both are perfectly possible.

    Wayland has nice ideas behind it, but overall the way it's implemented now it's worse than Xorg.

    X11/Xorg gives me more freedom and it's more modularized than Wayland/Whatever compositor you wanna throw in.

    Leave a comment:

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