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  • #11
    Originally posted by cute2dgirl View Post
    Stop insulting other people's intelligence when you're the one without a fucking clue.

    You literally asked why a bug was fixed.
    Y'know what most people do when they see a question? Answer it, rather than be a condescending bitch. So no, I will do whatever I please when someone is being needlessly hostile. You could learn something from randomsalad, Teggs, or skeevy420, who made a clarification, politely. Clearly, they understood that I couldn't possibly be dumb enough to merely wonder why a bug was fixed.
    Regardless if I were so clueless, why do you feel the need to ask me this:
    So, which specific games do you have in mind? Which of those have (useful) DXVK bug reports and are actually being held back by DXVK itself rather than wine issues?
    Do I need to question your reading comprehension yet again? Here, I'll spoonfeed you a couple non-trivial examples from the link I provided earlier:
    https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/issues/252
    https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/issues/870
    There are plenty of other examples of game-specific bugs, but the point of my argument is "confirmed wide-spread issues without alternative solutions are more important".
    I think anyone with half a brain would agree that fixing a bug known to affect multiple programs is more important than fixing a bug in a game that already works natively.
    If a skilled scientist spent his/her time and resources trying to cure measles, would you not question "why are you focusing on a disease that we already have a vaccine for when there are so many other severe and widespread illnesses?".
    Of course, the fixed bugs could possibly solve problems in other games, which is why (despite what you think) I'm not upset about them fixing a bug. Some progress is always better than no progress, and not everyone has the skill to squash bigger bugs. Doesn't change the fact that it's a weird priority.

    Calm down next time, and stop assuming the worst in people.
    Last edited by schmidtbag; 11-21-2019, 03:00 PM.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
      Y'know what most people do when they see a question? Answer it, rather than be a condescending bitch. So no, I will do whatever I please when someone is being needlessly hostile. You could learn something from randomsalad, Teggs, or skeevy420, who made a clarification, politely. Clearly, they understood that I couldn't possibly be dumb enough to merely wonder why a bug was fixed.
      Regardless if I were so clueless, why do you feel the need to ask me this:

      Do I need to question your reading comprehension yet again? Here, I'll spoonfeed you a couple non-trivial examples from the link I provided earlier:
      https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/issues/252
      https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/issues/870
      There are plenty of other examples of game-specific bugs, but the point of my argument is "confirmed wide-spread issues without alternative solutions are more important".
      I think anyone with half a brain would agree that fixing a bug known to affect multiple programs is more important than fixing a bug in a game that already works natively.
      If a skilled scientist spent his/her time and resources trying to cure measles, would you not question "why are you focusing on a disease that we already have a vaccine for when there are so many other severe and widespread illnesses?".
      Of course, the fixed bugs could possibly solve problems in other games, which is why (despite what you think) I'm not upset about them fixing a bug. Some progress is always better than no progress, and not everyone has the skill to squash bigger bugs. Doesn't change the fact that it's a weird priority.

      Calm down next time, and stop assuming the worst in people.
      One can also argue that a bug that either requires reverting from a standardized method to non-standardized method -- 870 -- or bugs introduced by drivers over time -- 252 -- where the cause may not be known or may or may not be fixed by the upstream driver writers, that either of those scenarios can be of lesser importance than a fix for a game where the fix is known and may possibly help other games regardless of the game being Native or Wine-only.

      I don't want to be in this argument, but I did feel the need to point that out. As far as I'm concerned, doitsujin will make the correct call in regards to his project, what should be done, and where it needs to go because he's done a hell of a job so far. None of y'all can argue otherwise.

      Random people arguing on what should be done first or what priority bug fixes should have is fucking disrespectful unless one is an actual contributor and/or actively trying to fix a bug and not someone who makes a bug report or ten. While bug reports are helpful and obviously appreciated, that doesn't give us reportees the right to criticize what gets done and when.

      I'm not getting into the calling a woman a bitch bullshit....too many damn SJWs to want to risk it....

      Comment


      • #13
        252 is a very old issue about RADV-specific problems which have pretty much all been solved at this point, and 870 actually turned out to be a bug in the Uplay overlay itself (it hooks vulkan-1.dll and screws up doing so, has nothing to do with D3D11).
        Last edited by cute2dgirl; 11-21-2019, 03:45 PM.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
          One can also argue that a bug that either requires reverting from a standardized method to non-standardized method -- 870 -- or bugs introduced by drivers over time -- 252 -- where the cause may not be known or may or may not be fixed by the upstream driver writers, that either of those scenarios can be of lesser importance than a fix for a game where the fix is known and may possibly help other games regardless of the game being Native or Wine-only.
          Reverting isn't a good option, because it means there's a regression. Regressions can be tricky since sometimes that means something else needs to be compromised (sometimes it's just a simple mistake).
          The DXVK team seems to be pretty good at specifying whether or not it is responsible for something, so, although the drivers could partially be a problem, it doesn't appear to be entirely at fault.
          As far as I'm concerned, doitsujin will make the correct call in regards to his project, what should be done, and where it needs to go because he's done a hell of a job so far. None of y'all can argue otherwise.
          I completely agree. There are currently 49 contributors, and I'm guessing several of them are volunteers who just do whatever they can; perhaps Dirt was done by one of them. I don't know for sure, which is why I'm not upset about the bug being fixed (not like I have a right to be, anyway).
          Random people arguing on what should be done first or what priority bug fixes should have is fucking disrespectful unless one is an actual contributor and/or actively trying to fix a bug and not someone who makes a bug report or ten. While bug reports are helpful and obviously appreciated, that doesn't give us reportees the right to criticize what gets done and when.
          And I didn't criticize it, I questioned it. Big difference. I didn't say the bug shouldn't have been fixed. I didn't say the bug was a bad priority. I was questioning why it was prioritized over more severe issues, because jumping to conclusions about their priorities is stupid.

          Regardless, I would argue it's only disrespectful if it's:
          A. Not constructive criticism
          B. If the contributors in question are volunteers
          I only mean well. I want to see the most progress to the largest audience possible. If I were to say "DXVK's priorities are stupid" (which I didn't) then sure, I'd totally be in the wrong. But I look at those bug reports of people who can't run their software with no reasonable solution, and I can't help but ask "why aren't they being served first?". How is that unreasonable of me?
          Meanwhile, DXVK has paid developers. It is completely fair to expect paid developers to address significant issues. If you use a product or service that is funded by a professional team, it is to be expected that team to address wide-spread issues. And perhaps they are, in which case, I'll shut up.
          too many damn SJWs to want to risk it....
          Isn't claiming that constructive criticism to be "fucking disrespectful" a SJW thing to do? Should I be silenced over speaking on behalf of what I think is the greater good, because I might hurt someone's feelings? Take another look at my first post, and you'll see that I look at the overall progress of DXVK with high positivity.

          EDIT:
          Anyone is allowed to say whatever they think is best. Whether or not their opinions carry any weight is a different story. If you don't contribute toward a project (whether that be in code, moderation, or financing) you don't have a right to tell the team what to do and you're out-of-line if you are maliciously critical of it, but anyone is allowed to express their preferences.
          Last edited by schmidtbag; 11-21-2019, 04:16 PM.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
            Reverting isn't a good option, because it means there's a regression. Regressions can be tricky since sometimes that means something else needs to be compromised (sometimes it's just a simple mistake).
            The DXVK team seems to be pretty good at specifying whether or not it is responsible for something, so, although the drivers could partially be a problem, it doesn't appear to be entirely at fault.

            I completely agree. There are currently 49 contributors, and I'm guessing several of them are volunteers who just do whatever they can; perhaps Dirt was done by one of them. I don't know for sure, which is why I'm not upset about the bug being fixed (not like I have a right to be, anyway).

            And I didn't criticize it, I questioned it. Big difference. I didn't say the bug shouldn't have been fixed. I didn't say the bug was a bad priority. I was questioning why it was prioritized over more severe issues, because jumping to conclusions about their priorities is stupid.

            Regardless, I would argue it's only disrespectful if it's:
            A. Not constructive criticism
            B. If the contributors in question are volunteers
            I only mean well. I want to see the most progress to the largest audience possible. If I were to say "DXVK's priorities are stupid" (which I didn't) then sure, I'd totally be in the wrong. But I look at those bug reports of people who can't run their software with no reasonable solution, and I can't help but ask "why aren't they being served first?". How is that unreasonable of me?
            Meanwhile, DXVK has paid developers. It is completely fair to expect paid developers to address significant issues. If you use a product or service that is funded by a professional team, it is to be expected that team to address wide-spread issues. And perhaps they are, in which case, I'll shut up.

            Isn't claiming that constructive criticism to be "fucking disrespectful" a SJW thing to do? Should I be silenced over speaking on behalf of what I think is the greater good, because I might hurt someone's feelings? Take another look at my first post, and you'll see that I look at the overall progress of DXVK with high positivity.

            EDIT:
            Anyone is allowed to say whatever they think is best. Whether or not their opinions carry any weight is a different story. If you don't contribute toward a project (whether that be in code, moderation, or financing) you don't have a right to tell the team what to do and you're out-of-line if you are maliciously critical of it, but anyone is allowed to express their preferences.
            In your first and second posts in the thread, that, IMHO, was constructive criticism based on your personal preferences with some (rhetorical) questions and curiosity and was all done in a considerate and seemingly polite manner. Nothing wrong with politely voicing one's opinions and we should all be supportive of that else we risk the slippery slope of authoritarianism.

            The half a brain, questioning logic and reading comprehension stuff in posts 11 & 8 is where it went from polite to disrespectful, IMO. Not saying that cute2dgirl wasn't a bit out of line in post 10, but, in all transparency, I am the one who liked that post because I agree with the premise of what was said because I think was was a pretty stupid question...but I figured I'd give an actual example that applies to me over saying that because I don't always try to come off as an asshole here...I mean, "why'd they fix a bug?" does come off that way and I knew someone else would get around to it (with some smilies because I don't know how to say that any nicer). I say some pretty dumb shit too and get called out on it enough that I didn't want to go there

            And calling a woman a bitch is like calling a gay person a faggot and that is pretty disrespectful, IMHO. I just don't see the need for punching below the belt like that...and that's coming from someone who frequently uses the word fucktard to describe people and concepts...fuck y'all, I'm a child of the 90s and *tard was our word of choice and I'm not willing to let the PC crowd win and take that one from me . They've take so much already like master and slave drives and calling taco night racist and culture appropriation ...anyone who wants to take away tacos is clearly retarded so we can't let them win

            That said, I could probably take your advice from 11 and calm down and stop assuming the worst. This shit does work both ways and I do recognize that I can read someone being frustrated in an argument the wrong way from what was actually intended

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            • #16
              Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
              The half a brain, questioning logic and reading comprehension stuff in posts 11 & 8 is where it went from polite to disrespectful, IMO. Not saying that cute2dgirl wasn't a bit out of line in post 10, but, in all transparency, I am the one who liked that post because I agree with the premise of what was said because I think was was a pretty stupid question...but I figured I'd give an actual example that applies to me over saying that because I don't always try to come off as an asshole here...I mean, "why'd they fix a bug?" does come off that way and I knew someone else would get around to it (with some smilies because I don't know how to say that any nicer). I say some pretty dumb shit too and get called out on it enough that I didn't want to go there
              Respect is to be earned, and as far as I'm concerned, her first response to me went straight to disrespectful. I give as I receive, and I received ridicule. I make a conscious effort to never go on the offensive first. So, if someone chooses to attack me (or someone/something I care about), I do not take that lightly. Call that an issue with arrogance, pride, vengeance, or whatever else, but for me it's a matter of principle. Seeing as this is Phoronix, I'm sure you're used to how tightly people cling onto their principles.
              Even though I knew people like yourself didn't agree with my my point of view (which is fine, BTW), you weren't antagonistic about it.

              Anyway... anyone would agree that "why'd they fix a bug?" is a stupid question. But most of you who responded to me (presumably you too) understood that "he can't possibly be that dumb to think that". Admittedly, I didn't phrase my first post that well. Even if I did, that still doesn't mean you'd have to agree; I don't expect you to, and I even stated in my 2nd post that I knew people wouldn't. I find it a little funny how right I was about that too...
              But there's the thing - that wasn't my question. My question was "why fix this bug over something arguably more important?" which has a lot of further implications. So if you insist even that question is stupid, well, I guess you have a different idea of priorities.
              And calling a woman a bitch is like calling a gay person a faggot and that is pretty disrespectful, IMHO. I just don't see the need for punching below the belt like that...and that's coming from someone who frequently uses the word fucktard to describe people and concepts...fuck y'all, I'm a child of the 90s and *tard was our word of choice and I'm not willing to let the PC crowd win and take that one from me . They've take so much already like master and slave drives and calling taco night racist and culture appropriation ...anyone who wants to take away tacos is clearly retarded so we can't let them win
              Well I mean... every insult is meant to be disrespectful, that's kind of why they exist.
              But semantics aside, I get what you're saying that but I partially disagree. I didn't call her a bitch because of being female; I've called males bitches in the past (I'm sure I called starshipeleven one), and I'd probably have used the same word if the message was from anyone else. I used the word because I was given a sassy attitude; bitchy is a more crass synonym of sassy. Being bitchy means you're being a bitch. I think you can extrpolate the rest from there. I insult people based on how they choose to behave and the actions they take; never for anything else. It must've been at least 25 years since I last used a deliberately bigoted/prejudiced insult.
              Regardless of interpretation, you're not wrong that it'd have been better of me to not use that word, or any insult in general. But on the internet, I have no interest in driving the moral high road every time, because I'll just be alone up there, still angry.
              That said, I could probably take your advice from 11 and calm down and stop assuming the worst. This shit does work both ways and I do recognize that I can read someone being frustrated in an argument the wrong way from what was actually intended
              Where am I assuming the worst? She literally proved me right saying stuff like I "don't have a fucking clue". I know the difference between someone who accidentally said something that came across the wrong way and someone who had animosity to some degree. She was not accidentally condescending.
              Last edited by schmidtbag; 11-21-2019, 10:45 PM.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
                Respect is to be earned, and as far as I'm concerned, her first response to me went straight to disrespectful. I give as I receive, and I received ridicule. I make a conscious effort to never go on the offensive first. So, if someone chooses to attack me (or someone/something I care about), I do not take that lightly. Call that an issue with arrogance, pride, vengeance, or whatever else, but for me it's a matter of principle. Seeing as this is Phoronix, I'm sure you're used to how tightly people cling onto their principles.
                Even though I knew people like yourself didn't agree with my my point of view (which is fine, BTW), you weren't antagonistic about it.
                I try not to be...unless it's like starshipeleven or 144hz and we're doing our thing.

                Anyway... anyone would agree that "why'd they fix a bug?" is a stupid question. But most of you who responded to me (presumably you too) understood that "he can't possibly be that dumb to think that". Admittedly, I didn't phrase my first post that well. Even if I did, that still doesn't mean you'd have to agree; I don't expect you to, and I even stated in my 2nd post that I knew people wouldn't. I find it a little funny how right I was about that too...
                But there's the thing - that wasn't my question. My question was "why fix this bug over something arguably more important?" which has a lot of further implications. So if you insist even that question is stupid, well, I guess you have a different idea of priorities.
                lol. This is Phoronix. You know damn well we'll think that. We're the largest collection of over-literal tards on the internet which is why I didn't want to go there. I knew one of the other overly-literal tards would do it either in jest or seriousness. We got seriousness this time.

                In a rhetorical point of view, that 2nd one is a good question...but...IMHO & assuming...I don't think either one of us are qualified to know what's more important than what here. Your position of "fix the non-native games first" makes 100% perfect sense in theory and expected practice, but, falling back on my assumption, without that in-depth knowledge of the codebase, what seems to make perfect sense to us might be fucking clown shoes retarded in reality.

                Well I mean... every insult is meant to be disrespectful, that's kind of why they exist.
                But semantics aside, I get what you're saying that but I partially disagree. I didn't call her a bitch because of being female; I've called males bitches in the past (I'm sure I called starshipeleven one), and I'd probably have used the same word if the message was from anyone else. I used the word because I was given a sassy attitude; bitchy is a more crass synonym of sassy. Being bitchy means you're being a bitch. I think you can extrpolate the rest from there. I insult people based on how they choose to behave and the actions they take; never for anything else. It must've been at least 25 years since I last used a deliberately bigoted/prejudiced insult.
                Regardless of interpretation, you're not wrong that it'd have been better of me to not use that word, or any insult in general. But on the internet, I have no interest in driving the moral high road every time, because I'll just be alone up there, still angry.
                That could be a regional thing/cultural difference and ties back into that assuming the worst comment you made. Say bitch in the bitchy meaning in my neck of the woods and people take it as bitch in the female meaning and it does not go over very well...as you can see by my response and feelings on the matter.

                Where am I assuming the worst? She literally proved me right saying stuff like I "don't have a fucking clue". I know the difference between someone who accidentally said something that came across the wrong way and someone who had animosity to some degree. She was not accidentally condescending.
                That was referring to me assuming the worst and that I should take that advise since I was clearly guilty of it too when reading some of your posts so, um, well...something, something, reading comprehension, something, something dark side

                On a side note -- I'm gonna be so damn glad when my new keyboard shows up on Saturday. I am so tired of all my typos because a key or two didn't register...and my enter key getting stuck in place making me have to use my numpad enter...fuck that's annoying...

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
                  And I didn't criticize it, I questioned it. Big difference. I didn't say the bug shouldn't have been fixed. I didn't say the bug was a bad priority. I was questioning why it was prioritized over more severe issues, because jumping to conclusions about their priorities is stupid.
                  There's a good chance it wasn't prioritized at all.

                  If I was a volunteer contributing to DXVK, I'd prioritize doing what I *can* do, as well as what I *want* to do. That typically means going after low-hanging fruit that looks simple to fix, with the risk of breaking something else hopefully being on the low-to-nonexistent side. The fix I introduce may even inadvertently fix other games that rely on the same functionality in a bigger way, so it's not like the fix itself couldn't be important.
                  Larger issues that require more work or major restructuring of larger components I would not be able to fix as a volunteer. That'd be work best handled by doitsujin himself and his most reliable contributors. But those things take time. Their importance is reflected in the amount of work they require, and the work takes time.
                  Also, as a volunteer, I might be more inclined to work on stuff I like, because one of the biggest driving motivating factors for making me do volunteer work would be fixing the things that bug me, personally. That will very naturally be at odds with what someone like you might consider more important, because our interests are almost certainly never going to be the same, though they might overlap at times.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by randomsalad View Post
                    There's a good chance it wasn't prioritized at all.

                    If I was a volunteer contributing to DXVK, I'd prioritize doing what I *can* do, as well as what I *want* to do. That typically means going after low-hanging fruit that looks simple to fix, with the risk of breaking something else hopefully being on the low-to-nonexistent side. The fix I introduce may even inadvertently fix other games that rely on the same functionality in a bigger way, so it's not like the fix itself couldn't be important.
                    I totally agree with all of that, and considered that may very well have been what happened. I don't know for sure and was too lazy to research it, hence me asking. lol that laziness sure backfired, eh?
                    Also, as a volunteer, I might be more inclined to work on stuff I like, because one of the biggest driving motivating factors for making me do volunteer work would be fixing the things that bug me, personally. That will very naturally be at odds with what someone like you might consider more important, because our interests are almost certainly never going to be the same, though they might overlap at times.
                    Makes sense, and again, I totally agree. To paraphrase something I said earlier: volunteers aren't obligated to do anything (other than obviously not causing problems). So, for example, if the Dirt Rally patch was done by a volunteer for their own self-interest, that is perfectly logical and sensible. Like I said before, not everyone has equal skills, so, if that patch is all that volunteer knows how to do, that's great.

                    I guess what I was really hinting at is if the paid DXVK devs made such a patch a priority. That is what I find more questionable. But even then: I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that it's a bad priority, because not being involved in the project, they could have a perfectly justified reason for it. Regardless, any patch is never a bad thing, no matter how big or small.

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                    • #20
                      Well bitches.. even a paid developer might prioritize to fix something he knows how to fix. It is the same in most if not all active dev branches. Sure, the users might not always agree with that, but well, they (the devs) are (probably) only humans after all.

                      I am not a programmer in any way, but i like to test and fiddle with stuff. Sometimes i come upon solutions, and attempt to contribute. Sometimes the solution is wrong and/or breaks other stuff, and sometimes a minor bug gets fixed. Doing this on a voluntarily basis means i can "freely do it", but that does not mean a paid dev should not if by chance he/she stumbles upon a solution

                      Something that seems important to me, and i think might be for a lot of ppl, can just as well end up being something absolutely nobody but me cares about

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