Kdbus Will Likely Be Merged Into The Kernel This Year

[profoundWHALE]

At first I was sceptical about Kdbus, but then I realised Linux allready has many bigger and more complex things in kernel.
I prefer microkernel, sadly there is no practically usable open source microkernel.

I as far as I know, Hurd is the closest you will get in that regard.

And the most usable microkernel that I know of is QNX (non-open source) which is already deployed in cell phones (It's the kernel for BB10), and nuclear power plants, and water treatment plants, and cars...

[caligula]

> people don't want tentacle monster
> you expect them to use bloated needless lib instead

Just like PAM and HAL, there was zero need for *Kit either. There's no point making it be a "logind or consolekit" question, when the best option is "neither".

PAM and HAL don't protect the user. That german sysadmin made a fool of himself in the CCC conference when showing his "talents". Poettering told him some user 2 can login via ssh and tune volume of ALSA to maximum for speakers when user 1 is listening to porn from headphones. So.. bad things can happen. Systemd and PA prevent this loophole and audio is tied to the session.

[caligula]

Multiseat is a completely valid usecase, so users who want multiseat should install logind. But it is not an argument to force it on the majority who do not require multiseat.

Likewise, I fully support those who want to use Bluetooth headsets with runtime audio redirection - they should install Pulseaudio, since nothing else provides that functionality as well. But again, no need to force it on non-BT owners.

Some wise guy once asked, why do you hate disabled people. Your machine has 16 cores, runs at 4 GIGA hertz, has 32 GIGA bytes of RAM and 3 TERA bytes of disk space per disk drive. So... it surely has room for Lennart's technology.

[curaga]

Some wise guy once asked, why do you hate disabled people. Your machine has 16 cores, runs at 4 GIGA hertz, has 32 GIGA bytes of RAM and 3 TERA bytes of disk space per disk drive. So... it surely has room for Lennart's technology.

It doesn't, and even if it did, it is a matter of principle. Are you for, or against bloat. The "for" people are responsible for the fact your user experience has not improved even as computers have gotten 10k times faster. They still boot as slow as in Win 3.11 days, you are still waiting for the computer instead of the computer waiting for you.

I'm sure you're familiar with quotes such as "what Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away".

[Skrapion]

Hey, you're right. Our experience hasn't improved one iota since Windows 3.11!

Or was that perhaps a little hyperbolic?

[tuubi]

Are you for, or against bloat.

One man's bloat is another's useful features. Wouldn't things be so much better if everything was black or white, and nothing in between?

The "for" people are responsible for the fact your user experience has not improved even as computers have gotten 10k times faster. They still boot as slow as in Win 3.11 days, you are still waiting for the computer instead of the computer waiting for you.

You're free to run ancient software on your modern computer if you find that enjoyable. I certainly don't. And I can assure you my Win 3.11 didn't boot in ten seconds, and it certainly didn't do it's job as well as my modern linux desktop does, not to mention the million useful jobs it didn't do at all. I don't know what you were running back then, but it must've been awesome.

[kigurai]

One man's bloat is another's useful features. Wouldn't things be so much better if everything was black or white, and nothing in between?

Excellent example. 24 bits per pixel is so obviously bloated considering you only need 1.

[curaga]

One man's bloat is another's useful features. Wouldn't things be so much better if everything was black or white, and nothing in between?

You are completely missing the point. The point is not that "curaga hereby degrees what is bloat and what is not". If you do things properly, ie loosely coupled and modular, there will be no overhead for the things you do not use.

Hey, you're right. Our experience hasn't improved one iota since Windows 3.11!

It hasn't, in comparable ways. A couple years back a journalist tested it: he did the same tasks on Win95 and Win7. It included word processing, spreadsheets, email, and some other things supported by both, such as boot time. Office 95 and 2007 were used, IIRC.

Guess what? The wait times in all cases were comparable, or worse in the newer edition. That means the experience is equal or worse now, in terms of responsiveness.

I'm not arguing that you cannot do more now. Video editing on a home comp was just a dream then, as an example. I'm saying the same tasks have gotten worse in the same pace the hardware has gotten better. Do you disagree?

Or was that perhaps a little hyperbolic?

On the net you need to use every method available, and people still manage to miss the point :P

[caligula]

You are completely missing the point. The point is not that "curaga hereby degrees what is bloat and what is not". If you do things properly, ie loosely coupled and modular, there will be no overhead for the things you do not use.



It hasn't, in comparable ways. A couple years back a journalist tested it: he did the same tasks on Win95 and Win7. It included word processing, spreadsheets, email, and some other things supported by both, such as boot time. Office 95 and 2007 were used, IIRC.

Guess what? The wait times in all cases were comparable, or worse in the newer edition. That means the experience is equal or worse now, in terms of responsiveness.

I'm not arguing that you cannot do more now. Video editing on a home comp was just a dream then, as an example. I'm saying the same tasks have gotten worse in the same pace the hardware has gotten better. Do you disagree?



On the net you need to use every method available, and people still manage to miss the point :P

I can tell for sure that seat management and pulseaudio don't ruin performance at all. The bigger problem is your ancient BIOS. You can improve Linux boot time with systemd (it does prefetching and readahead and uses fast builtin functionality). You can also buy those PCI-Express SSD cards that spew out terabyte per second. The only problem is BIOS. For me it's 75% of boot time in BIOS and I haven't even optimized Linux booting. I highly doubt it can be much faster than it is. It's 30 seconds in BIOS waiting for POST test, 10 seconds from GRUB2 to login manager. Quite fast eh? I have 600 MB/s SATA 3.0 SSD drive and Intel i7 4770K CPU overclocked at 4.2 GHz.

[tuubi]

You are completely missing the point. The point is not that "curaga hereby degrees what is bloat and what is not". If you do things properly, ie loosely coupled and modular, there will be no overhead for the things you do not use.

Are you thinking of a specific piece of software you'd like to be more "loosely coupled and modular"? Or is this purely philosophical? To my ear it smacks of pure idealism. Modularity isn't a magic word that makes a round peg fit holes of all shapes and sizes. Even module loaders, with the implied checks and layers, add their own overhead, in development effort in addition to actual resource efficiency.