Linus Torvalds Calls For More Linux Kernel Patches

[frign]

Gender Delusion

So I try to seperate the different mixed together points. hope I succeed, I see a high chance to get also attacked here from one site or so, but I try it anyway


There are different points that matter:

1. she said something about dont be abusive... now the real question is, does she accept the different oppinions from the other devs and learns her lesson, or not. If she basicly accept that now at least for now and I find it ok to talk about that.

2. what makes the media out of it. medias search stories, thats not the fault of her, media know that this is something differting, and thats a good thing because people listen to it and react to it.

3. peoples thread it differnt when womens are involved, here I see a main reason on feminist pseudo-movement. And that goes back really long, one fight I saw here with THE german feminist vs another woman where she abused her for having a different oppinion. Because she said that there is no onesided big discrimination of woman.

But forget about that, even if I never would have seen that, feminists miss the point most of the time.who raises our kids, woman, who are abusive to this kids most of the time, right, woman, who gets most often physical attacks, right man, who has big structures to help them beeing successful, right women, who is because of all that more successful in schools woman.

even if you would agree that there was some discrimination ( beeing forced to work away from the home in a kind of dictatorship/company ) or get forced into wars it not neccessary a advantage for that gender.

but again even if you think that woman were discreminated at one point, we overdid it, and there are some bullshit talkers that compare stuff thats not comparable... its lobbiest. They dont care if woman still gets discrimnated or its the opposite they do what lobbiest do they fight to bring advantage to that group with what tools ever.

As example they say that woman gets dont know 30% less money or so... they just dont say that that is for less hours of work or such stuff...

And they miss often the biggest point, the main discrimination is about the mighty rich 1-10% people vs the other 90-99% work-slaves. And in this group the employed vs the unimployed.

And even if you would think that woman would be threaded unfair, as normal person you would target first the biggest problems than the smaller ones.

4. what she has on her profiles... yes that makes her suspect but I would ignore it as long as she dont start such bullshit arguments on the kernel lists, what I read till now, she did not bring the gender discussion to the kernel mailing list. she is jung maybe she learns on this list, that not all man are rapists or that she gets the same respect than a man if she brings good work.

5. to the picture of technical people "that get no woman on school" as far as I know most of them are "softies" they often at least before they had to fight on the job and see how shitty the real world is today, they are the most woman normal-threater out there. But thats a problem woman want man that have balls and maybe not totaly control the woman but lead the group or something. Thats why this tech guys except they someday earn much money have problems with finding woman.

You put that together very well!

There's one point I would like to bring into this discussion: Most people don't know the difference between equal rights and equal status.

Given the example of the internships for women only this is not an act to propose equal rights, it's a preferential treatment for one gender.

You may argue that it will pull in more women into Kernel development and that this offer thus is legitimised. It may attract more females, but it isn't legitimised in any way when it lowers the chances for other males to get the same job. It's based on the false idea that 50% women and 50% men in a sector is the most beneficial configuration.
The public media is very active in teaching us this lie every day and most people fall for this ideology.

Why are so many people fighting for a 50:50 gender breakdown? It doesn't make sense at all, especially when only one gender can benefit from it.

Feminism is useless and only a tool of the 1% to divide us internally and distract us from bigger problems.

[erendorn]

1. she said something about dont be abusive... now the real question is, does she accept the different oppinions from the other devs and learns her lesson, or not. If she basicly accept that now at least for now and I find it ok to talk about that.

She never complained about abuse against herself.
She has contributed a significant amount of code to the kernel (ie, code that was accepted).

But forget about that, even if I never would have seen that, feminists miss the point most of the time.
1) who raises our kids, woman,
2) who are abusive to this kids most of the time, right, woman,
3) who gets most often physical attacks, right man,
4) who has big structures to help them beeing successful, right women,
5) who is because of all that more successful in schools woman.

1) life tip: you can raise your kids too. It would even help your wife dedicate more time to her career (say, as much time as you, for example)
2) source? here it says the contrary
3) that's because 90% of criminals are men and criminals get more physical attacks. On domestic violence, victims are mostly women (source).
4) source? I don't think having mostly male business management and male HR management throughout the whole society can really count as a big structure to help women, but who knows? I'm afraid I've never encountered any structure to help women be successful in my school and professional life, but maybe that's just me, or where I live.
5) Studies shows this effect is mostly linked to teachers (and society in general) expectation. Sadly, it doesn't really help in the real life (you know, work).

even if you would agree that there was some discrimination ( beeing forced to work away from the home in a kind of dictatorship/company ) or get forced into wars it not neccessary a advantage for that gender.

Ah, so you consider that women should not work, or are not expected to. That explains how you have difficulties to see "inequalities".

As example they say that woman gets dont know 30% less money or so... they just dont say that that is for less hours of work or such stuff...

It's 20% less for full time, on average, and reduced to around 5% if you account for position, education, leaves and such.
But accounting for position is a half good idea, knowing that the better paid positions will less accessible to women (the higher you go in management, the less women).
No, gender pay gap is not a myth.

And even if you would think that woman would be threaded unfair, as normal person you would target first the biggest problems than the smaller ones.

yes, we shouldn't try to solve any problem in the world as long as there is still hunger and war somewhere.

4. what she has on her profiles... yes that makes her suspect but I would ignore it as long as she dont start such bullshit arguments on the kernel lists, what I read till now, she did not bring the gender discussion to the kernel mailing list. she is jung maybe she learns on this list, that not all man are rapists or that she gets the same respect than a man if she brings good work.

suspect of what?
Also, she already brought good work.



All in all, you sure look like some heavily prejudiced guy...

[kernelOfTruth]

All in all, you sure look like some heavily prejudiced guy...

hm,

we all have our prejudices and fall for stereotypical thinking, etc.


there's enough literature out there to form your own opinion instead of relying on what mainstream media spoon-feeds us every day

notably among those is books (at least for this topic) from Esther Vilar:

The Manipulated Man
The Polygamous Sex
The end of manipulation


in German there's e.g. "Sind Frauen bessere Menschen ?" ("Are women better people?")

and several other authors which I won't look up right now since I have more important stuff to do


I'm not nearly through all books but at least the following I can say: if you haven't read those or similar literature - you'll end up with a very biased/conditioned or even indoctrinated worldview


I hate political discussions and won't post any further

[erendorn]

I'm not nearly through all books but at least the following I can say: if you haven't read those or similar literature - you'll end up with a very biased/conditioned or even indoctrinated worldview

A quick look at the thesis of these books suggest conspiration theory level of arguments and logic, and a limited level of quantitative support, but I admit the look I took was really quick.
Do you happen to have a source for more favorable summary/reviews of the arguments of these books I could look at?

[kernelOfTruth]

A quick look at the thesis of these books suggest conspiration theory level of arguments and logic, and a limited level of quantitative support, but I admit the look I took was really quick.
Do you happen to have a source for more favorable summary/reviews of the arguments of these books I could look at?

not really, I won't cherry-pick reviews of summary from e.g. amazon which might match with my preliminary conclusion or view I gained until now

concerning the "conspiration theory" argument: of course you can't base your whole world view around one thing - "we against the whole world" - "we against them", that's simply black-white, premature thinking
there's so many factors that have to be considered that have an effect on our everyday language, behavior, body language, expression, way of life, art of communication, etc. - on subconscious levels - that it's impossible
to not talk of "conspiration theory" when seen/faced with for the first time and you're not e.g. studying and/or researching in-depth in that direction - years ago when I heard about this I couldn't believe it and sort of had a personal crises and nervous breakdown since I could hardly digest it

now it seems to make more sense to me - note: I don't say that it's the truth or something - it at least makes sense since it fits into the bigger picture


and besides: why taking the short term or relying on the conclusions of others ? the authors researched hundreds if not thousands of studies, claims, books, articles and websites to back up their "claims"/hypothesis - so that we, the readers get a holistic picture of things and make up our own minds

summarys/reviews for sure can't live up to its content


it's strange to argument on English (yeah, English's my favorite language) but the side-effect can be that certain things aren't expressed in the way originally intended

anyways: give it a good read - it's an interesting reading

[blackiwid]

1) life tip: you can raise your kids too. It would even help your wife dedicate more time to her career (say, as much time as you, for example)

I have no kids and even if I would have them and even if I would raise them 50% there are schools and kidnergarden and other stuff where 99% of the employes are women (I overdue it a bit, but not that much)

And thats basicly the main point, if man are not geneticaly mass-rapists and murderers what I hope you not say, even if then man would be the asholes, they would have learned it from woman.

2) source? here it says the contrary

Why, and there will follow more of that, do you switch around arguments that or words from me I have never said? If you do that again in your next post I think I stop writing, because its that tactics that poisens discussions.

I never talked about SEXUAL Abuses I talked about Abuses. So if parents hit their children, and here in germany I think 90% of all people did that when I was a child... I even can say it for me that my mother hit me more often when I was a child... Again dont make a big deal of it, it was normal this days, basicly nearly everybody did that... even today many think thats normal.

So why should I argue about a small subcategorie of abuses, I talk about abuses in general. So you did not even answered to my argument because you talk about something different.

3) that's because 90% of criminals are men and criminals get more physical attacks. On domestic violence, victims are mostly women (source).

I dont talk about criminals, yes man gets more likely be a victom of other man, thats true, but still they get more often a victim. AND THIS MAN VICTOMS DONT GET VICTOM BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS AND SHOULD BE VIOLATED, what a stupid man-hating argument. unbelivable.

4) source? I don't think having mostly male business management and male HR management throughout the whole society can really count as a big structure to help women, but who knows? I'm afraid I've never encountered any structure to help women be successful in my school and professional life, but maybe that's just me, or where I live.

They have more support on all schools starting with the female teachers but thats not enough, on each university or school there are some people to help woman... to lazy to search the english word for that. in German they are called "Glecihberechtigungsbeauftragte" the name is a lie because there will freeze hell before a man get help there because a woman gets favored. sometimes they are even more straight forward and call them woman agent or something like that.

So there is more help for woman in the first 15-25 years. I never saw a man-agent or something like that.

5) Studies shows this effect is mostly linked to teachers (and society in general) expectation. Sadly, it doesn't really help in the real life (you know, work).

you cant just pick one number and think you proofed something about that, a correlation is not neccessarily a dependency. there are so much unknown in this calculation. its useless to battle here with numbers. like I said the biggest mistake you make is that you declare that having a good payed job is the goal for everyone and if one sex is not reaching that so good, they are misstreathed. Money isnt all, maybe thats also a cultural thing. In america maybe a woman is really forced to make unpaid work if they dont find good payed.

Here in germany its not that simple. You can say no, except you have kids but even than we have biggest number of unemployment rates, and this woman get enough money to live (kind of) so the question is why does the market not work. why does everybody need a job, thats like you sell a Ipod if everybody buys needs to by the ipod on every case the price will go up to 50000 Dollars. Thats our problem. And that in our econemy at some places maybe a woman dont gets 100% of what the man gets but only 95% here the market is not working... so why should we dont fix that with higher taxes and giving this woman some money or something.

And there is another thing, even if you were right about that stuff, its 1-10% of the people that have might... that are dictators (bosses) if somebody discriminates woman in the kind you suggest with paying them less money so call this rich people bad people or if you really must rich man. But such money-earn-gap does if at all prove that this few people act sexistisch not the whole society.

Ah, so you consider that women should not work, or are not expected to. That explains how you have difficulties to see "inequalities".

thats the point why you feminists gets really hated, you twitsch around words to win fights, its basicly lieing on cost of others. its unbelivable that you lie here so much about what I have said. I said:

even if you would agree that there was some discrimination ( beeing forced to work away from the home in a kind of dictatorship/company ) or get forced into wars it not neccessary a advantage for that gender.

that has nothing to do with your interpretation. I said nothing about what womens should do or not, but to say because woman did not work back in older days or even today, they are not all forced into that. And on the other site the man had never the choice to stay home and send the woman to work. So I dont see how here one site is more discreminated then the other, only if you take money income or work-in-a-dictatorship as the only goal in live for everybody.

But accounting for position is a half good idea, knowing that the better paid positions will less accessible to women (the higher you go in management, the less women).
No, gender pay gap is not a myth.

so again you call all man discrimating individuals because a low elite of criminals dont let enough woman into their criminal circle?

yes, we shouldn't try to solve any problem in the world as long as there is still hunger and war somewhere.

I did not talk about afrika I did talk about europe and america. We need a basic income grant, that does not solv every single problem on the earth but more than that woman get also corrupt ashole-managers.

suspect of what?

that she fall also for this fanatic ideology.


Again woman was most of the time in the last 100 years more free than man, they dont needed to get to war to get shot and they could often choose between working part-time or staying at home, or dont get kids and go full time working. if they earch 10% more or less doesnt matter that much, except the society is damaged in a bigger way.

Here its pretty easy in earlier days one parent could earn enough for the hole family now often both have to work full-time to get enough income, is that what feminists wanted? to lower the effective income to 50% for the same amount of work?

So you see we have bigger problems, on paper man and woman are even, if some woman dont fight for their rights and they accept lower wages its basicly their fault.

Our hole system stinks like hell... thats the problem... not about how we share the bit the 10% let us the 90% over pervectly right between the genders.

We have to talk about money-systems, social-systems, tax-systems about might of rich people we dont need to fight aobu tthe 10% the rich people let the poor people over lets talk about the 90% the rich keep for themselv.

[vljn]

She never complained about abuse against herself.
She has contributed a significant amount of code to the kernel (ie, code that was accepted).


1) life tip: you can raise your kids too. It would even help your wife dedicate more time to her career (say, as much time as you, for example)
2) source? here it says the contrary
3) that's because 90% of criminals are men and criminals get more physical attacks. On domestic violence, victims are mostly women (source).
4) source? I don't think having mostly male business management and male HR management throughout the whole society can really count as a big structure to help women, but who knows? I'm afraid I've never encountered any structure to help women be successful in my school and professional life, but maybe that's just me, or where I live.
5) Studies shows this effect is mostly linked to teachers (and society in general) expectation. Sadly, it doesn't really help in the real life (you know, work).



Ah, so you consider that women should not work, or are not expected to. That explains how you have difficulties to see "inequalities".


It's 20% less for full time, on average, and reduced to around 5% if you account for position, education, leaves and such.
But accounting for position is a half good idea, knowing that the better paid positions will less accessible to women (the higher you go in management, the less women).
No, gender pay gap is not a myth.


yes, we shouldn't try to solve any problem in the world as long as there is still hunger and war somewhere.



suspect of what?
Also, she already brought good work.



All in all, you sure look like some heavily prejudiced guy...

I wanted to answer something like this, but you did it better than I would ever have.
By the way, why people bring the achievement of Sarah Sharp in the debate ? It looks like most people in this thread don't submit patches to the LKML or to userspace bit and yet give their opinion on the matter ; IMHO the fact that people questions her skills when she give her opinion while not bothering to do so for men shows how far we are from an equal status for men and women in our FOSS community.

[Hamish Wilson]

So I suppose Ryan Gordon is just a whiny bitch when he complains about exactly the same thing. His problems with FatELF were also well publicized by the media even though the man evidently has pair of things dangling from somewhere below his midriff. And he also posts personal and sometimes political messages on his social media accounts. Does that mean we can not take his points on an entirely separate issue seriously?

I really hope Linus himself will set some time aside to criticize the entire frame of debate here, including the sexists assholes who are just as responsible for the corrosive and ultimately time wasting flame war that this has turned into as the original poster herself is. This whole thing is a mess, and a lot of it could have been avoided if certain people did not get so personally offended because a woman told them off on something. I do not even care if what she told them off on was proper or not, it is the response to it that is truly disgusting.

If you do not see yourself as being sexist, allow me to show some prejudice: I notice that a lot of the worst offenders here for this bullshit in this thread seem to be German. From this I can develop a very low opinion of Germans, which given past history is not that hard a thing to do. As such I could feel perfectly justified in lashing out at them and disregarding their opinions simply because they are from Germans. I don't, because I know that is not fair. But you guys don't seem to agree, given your treatment of women.

And returning to Ryan Gordon for a moment, I will also pose another question: How come Gordon was treated so much more constructively by the freedesktop.org community with a different proposal than he was by the Kernel developers with FatELF? They seem to be no less successful in actually getting things done. So maybe the Kernel culture could use a bit of tweaking.

[IanS]

I won't pretend to speak for anyone else and I don't intend to defend or attack any posts made in this thread. I just felt like chiming in about feminism since that is where this thread has gone. I detest feminism with a passion and often those who are most vocal in advocating it (male or female). It is one of the most abhorrent and discriminatory movements to come out of the human condition in recent history that masquerades as an advocate for equal rights when there could be nothing further from the truth. The very idea that women need advocates in the first place means that feminists themselves believe women to be inferior, which is total rubbish. The idea of creating a technical internship that disciminates based on gender and sexual preference is appalling; these things should never come under consideration in this situation. A technical position should be won on technical merits alone. The fact that Sarah would for even a second see this as anything but blatant hypocrasy on her part shows quite clearly how highly she values equal rights.

I believe everyone should have the right to live their life the way they choose, to follow their dreams and ambitions as far as their skill and determination can carry them. Has anyone considered that perhaps the shortage of women in tech fields could have something to do with the fact that this type of work is not appealing to the average woman? Sitting alone in front of a monitor for long hours trying to solve problems and uncover bugs is not appealing to most people and particularly not to most women I have met who tend to gravitate towards more socially active pursuits. Why try to force women into jobs and education/career paths that they don't find interesting or satisfying? There will always be some who do enjoy this work and all power to them as long as they are willing to put in the same commitment and effort that others do and earn their place within the field based on their abilities.

[Hamish Wilson]

I detest feminism with a passion and often those who are most vocal in advocating it (male or female). It is one of the most abhorrent and discriminatory movements to come out of the human condition in recent history that masquerades as an advocate for equal rights when there could be nothing further from the truth. The very idea that women need advocates in the first place means that feminists themselves believe women to be inferior, which is total rubbish.

Totally, utterly, and completely wrong. Admitting that a certain group is disadvantaged in society is not equal to believing it to be innately inferior. Do labour unions exist because they believe their members are inferior to the management? One can only believe a line like that if they harbour a total and complete misunderstanding of the use of power in human relationships and society. And like it or not, women often become far more powerless in society than men, and often have their issues ignored by male dominated governments and corporations. And like any other group they have their own unique issues and problems that need to be advocated for and addressed by society. You just need to look at a newspaper and see how female reproductive health is being abused to see why women still need their advocates. Those advocates happen to be feminists. Whether you truly understand what the term means is still up for question, but to write them off at this time in history is simply asinine.

Are such things as selective internships for women in technical fields a good thing? I honestly don't know. But simply because you have a bee in your trousers over the fact that some people can actually observe that in our modern world things still are not fair or based truly on merit simply serves to show that you have buried your head so far into the sand for so long that you have gotten enough sand in your eye's to obscure your vision. If you truly want to passionately hate something, why not go after injustice in general rather than those trying to level a still uneven playing field. You do not need to agree with everything an advocate proposes, but you should at least be glad that someone wants to be do something to make the world a brighter place. Because currently, it simply is not all that bright a place for a large ammount of people supposedly born equal. And that does need to be adressed.