The KDE vs. GNOME Schism In Free Software

[liam]

quote from your posted article;



The lower the latency - in theory, less jitter.

So latency is very important.

Consistent playing is important (of course), but high latencies can interfere with that, and obviously so does jitter. Which is why having low latency is important.

forgot to write that in the last post.

Although I haven't found the answer to this, my interpretation of the data (tables of hardware runs) indicates that you move away from a desired latency based on, roughly, a percentage basis rather than an absolute one. So if you want a 10ms latency you might end up with, say, up to about 15ms, but with a 1ms you get something like a .5ms jitter. So, as was said, the important thing isn't the latency but the jitter, or deviation from the norm, but, as you said, since there is a relationship between the two, on a given software/hardware platform, you practically aim for the latency which provides a jitter less than that which you can detect (from what I've read, one shouldn't need anything less than about 2-3ms, but that would again depend on how much that software/hardware combination can deviate from the average, so if you have very low jitter you might be able to get away with 5ms latency, but with a higher jitter, you'll need a lower latency).
If you know of any other resources that might be useful in this area I'd appreciate the links since the ones you gave contained some information I hadn't seen.

Best/Liam

[ninez]

Although I haven't found the answer to this, my interpretation of the data (tables of hardware runs) indicates that you move away from a desired latency based on, roughly, a percentage basis rather than an absolute one. So if you want a 10ms latency you might end up with, say, up to about 15ms, but with a 1ms you get something like a .5ms jitter. So, as was said, the important thing isn't the latency but the jitter, or deviation from the norm, but, as you said, since there is a relationship between the two, on a given software/hardware platform, you practically aim for the latency which provides a jitter less than that which you can detect (from what I've read, one shouldn't need anything less than about 2-3ms, but that would again depend on how much that software/hardware combination can deviate from the average, so if you have very low jitter you might be able to get away with 5ms latency, but with a higher jitter, you'll need a lower latency).
If you know of any other resources that might be useful in this area I'd appreciate the links since the ones you gave contained some information I hadn't seen.

I'm not sure if those jitter estimations are intirely correct. I remember a year or so, when there was a lot of talk on the Jack-devel-list discussing this very subject ~ can't really remember the details, though. but the concept seems sound. enough. try googling this;

* midi-jitter jack-devel *

it should turn up a number of discussions on the matter. You'll just have to navigate through the psotings/threads but you should find some useful info there.

i'm actually doing some work, right now liam. But how is this? - i will get back to you on this, tomorrow. I think my laptop, probably still has some decent bookmarks in firefox, both some audio/midi related stuff and RT stuff too... The laptop in question is at work, otherwise i'd take a quick look for you.

cheerz

[V!NCENT]

I don't just know a respected Dubstep producer. I know many people who are in the party throwing industry, like 50.000 people kind of parties. Also various people who do television studios and other audio/video related stuff.

Nobody uses MIDI anymore, smartass.
Have you ever seen a DMX cable? It looks this:

Oopsy...

[ninez]

I don't just know a respected Dubstep producer. I know many people who are in the party throwing industry, like 50.000 people kind of parties. Also various people who do television studios and other audio/video related stuff.

Nobody uses MIDI anymore, smartass.
Have you ever seen a DMX cable? It looks this:

Oopsy...

DMX is most commonly used for stage lighting and FX, Furthermore, the picture you are showing - is XLR (audio signal) to DMX. Do you actually know what that does, idiot??? LOL. ie: route a kick drum from a console into the lighting, and everytime the drummer hits the drum, the light will respond - as one simple example. it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with being a replacement for midi, or sequencing, automation (in the non-stagw, but DAW sense, etc, etc. You are completely wrong again;

1st link, keynote by Avid/Protools

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ZzQcEc85nfkJ:www.interactiondesign.se/wiki/_media/courses:dmx.midi_keynote.pdf+dmx+to+xlr+wikipedia&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESizMgKm-uUBTV8YqRn11LjP4y8Wl-6znPxd07IHfGNMPQXnHsEZHO7H37Nq7XYnfnn7QZeoTdIM00Oelyd6EmPteaT87W9ooWuMJqR2cxi5aTa_jufQZOZ2iX_FH9p37hFERXiU&sig=AHIEtbR6ARLrn7wMacGTYPifQwtmrMzvqQ

2nd link, Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMX512

Again, You don't know what you are talking about at all. Knowing 50,000 people or not. and FYI - back in the 90s (when i actually gave a shit about the scene you are referring too. I knew just as many promoters, DJs, etc as you claim to know - and that still doesn't mean jackshit. and quite frankly, if i wanted too, i could throw much bigger names of artists that someone in my family represents, that put you're little rave-scenesters little parties to shame (a few of the bigger names in the Industry, including one of the biggest rock acts of the last few years). but i choose not too, because i don't need to do anything but illustrate FACTS, that clearly show you are misinformed, and don't know shit!

MIDI:

You will notice most if not all DAWs listed in Wikipedia will list 'midi-sequencer/digital audio workstation' under 'type'. Oh ya, but nobody uses midi anymore (except the whole fucking music industry). And FYI, i saw U2 and sublime (seperately) a few months back, and guess what - both were using MIDI on stage. U2's keyboardist uses a Receptor Pro on stage, with Garristan Orcestra (VSTi, among others) and guess what the Receptor uses MIDI. Bud from sublime had midi-triggers on certain drums, and eric wilson (bass player) was using a bass-synthesizer (on songs where they do on the albums, ie: April 26th, 1992, and a few others). When i say Radiohead a couple of years ago, they were using Kontakt (Native instruments VSTi) for many of there keyboards (instead of ruining vintage gear, they have migrated it over). Radiohead also was using midi-sync from their laptops to their looper (and probably to sync other things).. That is just a few small examples, but every single one of your producing friends is using midi everytime they sequence anything, and use automation Furthermore, the majority of all POP acts, are probably using midi on stage, same goes for the big boys in hiphop (who usually have bands and/or dj's live), and same with the biggest acts in Rock'n'Roll. You might also want to actually go to the Receptor's website, and see how many of the world's top musical performers rely not only on the Receptor, but midi in general.

http://www.museresearch.com/community/artists.php

you can click on the 'artists' / 'bands' / pictures on the rightside tab - there should be plenty of artists you recognise - all of which are using midi. and most, if not all are well-known professionals.

HERE ARE THE FACTS ABOUT MIDI: (that completely lay to rest, you're uninformed, ignorant point of view)

Wikipedia;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI

Wiki's on several Professional grade DAWs/sequencers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubase

(your DJ friend is using midi, any automation (ie: wobbly bass, filter sweeps, is using a resonant filter -> controlled by an LFO -> and usually the 'rate' parameter of the LFO will be controlled via knobs (using MidiCC) -> and then in turn is recorded using midi-automation by the DAW. This is common practice for all dubstep, jungle and dirty electronic music. You will also hear filter sweeps controlled via midi in every form of house music, and all of it's sub-genres.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Tools

(read the part on piano roll and automation - it applies to all DAWs, they all use midi)\\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_Pro

(same shit, read through it - you are wrong, Midi is the industry standard, and DMX is not a replacement for midi, DMX is a standard for stage lighting and FX.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renoise

Renoise is still adding Midi features (as of 2011).

As a linux audio user, i rely on midi to allow me to control my instruments, samples and all control parameters. Without midi, i would not be able to trigger Sooperlooper with my feet;

http://www.essej.net/sooperlooper/

Last updated version Sept. 21 / 2011 ... and it uses midi(and OSC).

Jack-audio-connection-kit - uses Jack-midi as a replacement for ALSA-midi. It's head developer also develops Ardour. What is the main new feature that ALL Ardour users are excited about for 3.0??? you guessed it - MIDI ... Why?? because then they have an integrated midi-sequencer in thier DAW - and for the first time, are able to do all sequencing and midi-autiomation inside of Ardour...

But midi is useless, and no one uses it, right?

http://jackaudio.org/

http://ardour.org/a3_features

The only up and comer that i am aware of that does the same sort of shit as midi (and then some) is OSC. DMX has nothing to do with that stuff, and you are a moron for trying say that it does - to someone who has actually attended a proper music/technology program, I've worked with DMX, i know the difference, dumbass!

a little on OSC (Open Sound Control) too, for fun;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sound_Control

OSC is a modern alternative to MIDI.

You're such a dumbass ViGRNORANT.

I warned you, you should've just shut your mouth - you clearly have no idea WHATSOEVER about what you are talking about! SERIOUSLY!!!! I knew more than you seem to, when i was 8 or 9 years old.

bye bye

[ninez]

I don't just know a respected Dubstep producer. I know many people who are in the party throwing industry, like 50.000 people kind of parties. Also various people who do television studios and other audio/video related stuff.

Nobody uses MIDI anymore, smartass.
Have you ever seen a DMX cable? It looks this:

Oopsy...

Oh and just to add to this vignorant. There is no such thing as a DMX cable. DMX uses XLR cables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR_connector

OOPSY, vignorant doesn't even know what an XLR cable is, or what it looks like.

Microphones, PAs, DMX, etc - all use XLR.

Here is some more reading on DMX specification and specifically how it uses standard XLR cables to transmit data.

http://www.interactive-online.com/support/knowledgebase/42-dmx-512/117-dmx-512-connector-pinouts

better luck next time. Why don't you just go into another thread, and show someone else how little you know, about some other subject.

bye

[gururise]

So when did the discussion veer off topic from KDE vs. Gnome to Midi cables and such?

I personally think KDE and Gnome-Shell both look beautiful. Unity looks ugly, even though I've been a die hard Ubuntu fan since 6.04. Unity may work as well as Gnome-Shell, but Gnome-Shell has got some great eye candy!

[yogi_berra]

So when did the discussion veer off topic from KDE vs. Gnome to Midi cables and such?

What's wrong with topics going off topi... SQUIRREL!

[V!NCENT]

Except for some analog audio, DMX cables are used for everything now, even mics. They are the standard connectors now. If they were for light only, then why are there mics with DMX connection? Why are there keyboards which you can hook up only with DMX? To produce light I'm sure.... Not.

You can quote Wikipedia all day you like, but these cables connect everything now. A quick google will return results.

It might be better to stop discussing, since you have a very outdated experience with reality. I've worked with them myself, but Ninez insists Wikipedia is there to fix my reality.

For those wondering how this entire discussion got started; some retard linked the KDE SC with Pulseaudio and Ninez came flaming that Pulseaudio somehow introduced a few miliseconds delay in recording MIDI signal, even though you can get around PulseAudio and talk to ALSA directly, since Pulseaudio sits on top of that. But anyway: MIDI seems to attract audiophiles that say that latency is important when doing studio recording, even though you can get sound from the keyboard from the keyboard directly and place the MIDI recoring back 20s for the master recording.

Stujpid bullshit that anybody who worked with profesional audio in the last 5 years will emediately counter.

[TheBlackCat]

To be pedantic, PulseAudio was linked with Gnome3 (which apparently has it as a hard build dependency). It has always been an optional dependency for KDE SC (although some applications may require it).

[V!NCENT]

That Gnome 3 uses PulseAudio shouldn't be a problem; all devs that use Gnome 3 will then recognise the need to fix strict Alsa driver talk (PulseAudio doesn't have drivers as it only routes).

All Gnome 3 programmers can keep using Alsa and OSS, because having a hard dependancy on something doesn't limit _YOU_ from using something else.

What a non-discussion BTW. Pulseaudio was since the second Ubuntu release using this, simply working perfect for me. It's a Alsa and OSS to/from Pulseaudio driver thing that some experience with specific Alsa and OSS drivers, but not for everyone.

It's like blaming Mesa for a Gallium driver bug -_-'