Cyberus Develops Open-Source KVM Backend For VirtualBox

[ssokolow]

So that's what it happens when talking politely to some people. I'm not going to use the same condescending tone that you use.

Sorry. I didn't think through the possible ways that could be read without tone-of-voice information. I didn't mean it to come across as condescending.

First, if someone has e.g. a damaged installation and do not see tooltips for icons, that someone shouldn't say that Libreoffice has "a ton of icons with no tooltips", which is not true.

As a programmer myself, I'm skeptical that LibreOffice is architected in a way that would allow something that doesn't show up in debsums -c output to break tooltips while not presenting any other observable problems. It's not impossible, but I find the odds to be very low unless there's some "disable tooltips" checkbox I'm unaware of which could get checked for no good reason. (Again, such a checkbox even existing seems like making more maintenance work for yourself for a feature with no good reason to exist.)

Tooltips are typically implemented as being hard-coded to the same degree as any other translatable string and sourced from the same store of translation files.

Second, the thing that was discussed about was if Inkscape has a "suitable alternative" and use cases, not if ssokolow would take quite a while to learn LibreOffice Draw. But you can keep talking about yourself, this is not going to be read by people that have something to do.

I think it's fair to bundle retraining time into that word "suitable". Otherwise, you can argue that anyone who likes Vim should consider Emacs a suitable alternative and vice-versa.

[dkasak]

Kubuntu 22.04 LTS isn't new enough

Hmmm. Yeah dude that's from years back. Try a more recent version? I hear there have been some great systemd additions in recent years :P

https://imgur.com/a/3R1COXw

LOL ok. I've used "quite a few" different desktops ( I've always liked customizing things ), and I've never seen things behave THAT badly. I primarily use Enlightenment these days - I'm by no means a Gnome fanboy. I HAVE seen the borders around apps ( in Enlightenment ). This was a bug, and they fixed it. Perhaps try a different desktop?

If they hadn't made the decision unilaterally, I'd be fine with that. You use GNOME and I'll use KDE and we can get along... but GNOME HIG-isms and Adwaita-isms keep creeping into things that were developed on GTK under the implicit social contract of the GTK+ 2.x era, like Inkscape, which have no suitable alternative.

That's pushing into conspiracy-theory territory, so I'll just leave you with those complaints.

I got fed up and just started evicting GTK apps after discovering first-hand how API-unstable the required CSS rules are.)

Yeah I figured I assume you know the quote about cutting off your nose to spite your own face. It sounds like you have some serious OCD. Personally, I *prefer* gtk apps ... but I don't ban apps from my desktop just because they're qt ... even though I don't really like the looks of qt apps on my desktop. At the end of the day, an app is just a tool to assist with a particular task. I kinda move beyond my visual preferences and just complete the task, and it doesn't upset me.

Example: I develop an ETL framework. The GUI uses gtk3, and the language is primarily perl. I package the whole thing in flatpak, which is an absolute god-send, as it allows VERY simple installation on customer's systems that I have no control over. However sometimes, I need to debug a gloriously complex problem, and I need a graphical IDE that allows me to set breakpoints, examine variables, etc. For this, I deploy ptkdb. It uses Tk - a widget toolkit that appears to come from the beginning of time. It's truly an eyesore, and quite confronting to look at. But guess what ... I just USE IT. It works. I fix bugs. Life continues.

Maybe if someone provided a third-party utility where people could enter their configuration preferences and it would use auto-downloaded definition updates to template them out into CSS rules for whatever version of Adwaita is installed system-wide, plus all versions of Adwaita currently installed through Flatpak or snaps... plus optionally any manually specified versions of Adwaita the user knows to be present in the form of Appimages.

You could do that! You have the inspiration and motivation ...

...or GNOME could just stop screwing around and do as the Linux kernel does and adopt a "you must submit fixes for any dependencies you break" policy for user customizations instead of this passive-aggressive "keep changing things until users get tired of keeping up and stop deviating from your perfect vision of how a desktop should work" BS.

Conspiracy theory ...

Anyway ... try a move recent Kububtu I guess. Hopefully they've fixed some of those issues. It helps to keep in mind that gtk developers are not out to ruin your day - they're just doing their best ( and mostly not getting paid for it ) to build tools that they themselves would like to use. They kinda expect their apps to be run on Gnome, or at least on a desktop that respects modern linux desktop protocols. Many of the smaller window managers DO actually behave correctly with gtk apps. If KDE doesn't, that's not really gtk developers' fault, nor their intention. But of course, you can't please all the people all of the time ... and some people get very upset at the smallest ( or in your case slightly enlarged ) things. Out of interest, what DO you use to manage your VMs?

[ssokolow]

Hmmm. Yeah dude that's from years back. Try a more recent version? I hear there have been some great systemd additions in recent years :P

It's the newest LTS. I'll be jumping to 24.04 LTS when its stable release comes out.

LOL ok. I've used "quite a few" different desktops ( I've always liked customizing things ), and I've never seen things behave THAT badly. I primarily use Enlightenment these days - I'm by no means a Gnome fanboy. I HAVE seen the borders around apps ( in Enlightenment ). This was a bug, and they fixed it. Perhaps try a different desktop?

You've tried launching it with compositing enabled, then toggling compositing off (either by fullscreening something like MPV or by using the hotkey)? ...because that's a fully up-to-date copy of Flatpak-distributed Flatseal, with associated GTK version, and GTK 3 is the only toolkit that exhibits that problem.

That's pushing into conspiracy-theory territory, so I'll just leave you with those complaints.

It's demonstrated fact. They have no interest in the implicit promises of "GTK is a good platform for a 'standard UI toolkit for Linux'" made in the GTK+ 2 era and, as their changes for GNOME break or degrade non-GNOME uses of GTK, it's a crapshoot whether they'll care to fix said breakages.

That agrees with other signs of how they look at things, such as the "ship stock or GTFO" response that drove System76 to GTFO by developing COSMIC.

Yeah I figured I assume you know the quote about cutting off your nose to spite your own face. It sounds like you have some serious OCD. Personally, I *prefer* gtk apps ... but I don't ban apps from my desktop just because they're qt ... even though I don't really like the looks of qt apps on my desktop. At the end of the day, an app is just a tool to assist with a particular task. I kinda move beyond my visual preferences and just complete the task, and it doesn't upset me.

I treat GTK+ and Electron as apps of last resort because, for varying reasons, they don't match up with the behaviours I expect. (eg. not obeying the same keyboard shortcuts, failing to honor the OK/Cancel button ordering preference specified by the theme, making it difficult to identify which window on my three-monitor spread has input focus through artistic use of low contrast between focused and unfocused states, forcing me to reach for KWin's "show context menu" keyboard shortcut to access Window management functions that are available from the mouse on anything else, thus breaking muscle memory, etc.)

It took years for Chromium-based things to just implement SELECTION (i.e. middle-click) copy-paste in a proper, non-buggy way.

It's not about aesthetics. It's about an objectively worse experience due to inconsistencies between them and the majority of other applications I run.

Example: I develop an ETL framework. The GUI uses gtk3, and the language is primarily perl. I package the whole thing in flatpak, which is an absolute god-send, as it allows VERY simple installation on customer's systems that I have no control over. However sometimes, I need to debug a gloriously complex problem, and I need a graphical IDE that allows me to set breakpoints, examine variables, etc. For this, I deploy ptkdb. It uses Tk - a widget toolkit that appears to come from the beginning of time. It's truly an eyesore, and quite confronting to look at. But guess what ... I just USE IT. It works. I fix bugs. Life continues.

git gui is my preferred tool for cherry-picking lines to roll into my next commit. Have I themed its Ttk widgets to look more Clearlooks-y? Yes... but the important thing is that its behaviour is closer to that of Qt, the Chromium defaults inherited by Electron, Windows 7, etc. than GNOME is. (Hell, I prefer git gui over native Qt-based git GUIs because it's about workflow more than appearance.)

Out of interest, what DO you use to manage your VMs?

Until the jump from 20.04 LTS to 22.04 LTS broke the kernel modules, I was using Virtualbox. Thankfully, at the moment, I'm between having a strong need for it, so I've resorted to just relying on pulling another "slower but good enough" physical device out of the closet, plugging it into my KVM switch, and booting it off a USB stick containing whatever it is that I need to "VM".