Bcachefs Boasts Hefty Optimization For Linux 6.8: 4k MT Random Writes Jump ~30%

[spicfoo]

Can you post some sources? As you said having heated discussion is nothing new on LKML and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary since bcachefs was merged.

An example was already posted here

And stop pinning things on Kent, there is a saying that "it takes two to tango" and whats going on right now is an exemplary case of that. There are a lot of egos on LKML and for better or worse, Kent is very smart which is rubbing people the wrong way due their ego getting hurt

People are entirely capable of escalating an argument all on their own. There are plenty of smart people working in Linux kernel. You can be smart and diplomatic as many kernel developers are. If you want an example, Neil Brown is one. Kent doesn't fall into that category and tends to be defensive or argumentative and that does rub people the wrong way. Hans Reiser was famous for doing this before. There are plenty of others (Al Viro, Linus more so in the past and these days has toned it down quite a bit). None of this is new to Linux kernel development and mostly has gotten better these days. I am positive once the initial spur of activity tapers off, things will settle down as far as Bcachefs is concerned. Life moves on.

[mdedetrich]

An example was already posted here

Seriously your using this as an example? Someone butted into an ongoing discussion claiming something is "ugly" without any proper context or explanation, Kent is on the 100% on the right side of the fence here.

What Kent said here https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdeve...oria.home.lan/ i.e.

Good taste is a highly important trait - in the course of normal work we
trust our subjective opinions constantly, because those opinions have
been trained by years and years of judgements and we can't reason
through everything.

But when you show up to a discussion that's been going on for a page,
where everything's been constructively gathering input, and you start
namecalling - and crucially, _without giving any technical justification
for your opinions_ - that's just you being a dick.

Is right on the money.

I am not sure you realize, but there are people with far bigger egos than Kent who have far more questionable behaviour and they get away with this because they are part of the "in group"

People are entirely capable of escalating an argument all on their own. There are plenty of smart people working in Linux kernel. You can be smart and diplomatic as many kernel developers are. If you want an example, Neil Brown is one. Kent doesn't fall into that category and tends to be defensive or argumentative and that does rub people the wrong way. Hans Reiser was famous for doing this before. There are plenty of others (Al Viro, Linus more so in the past and these days has toned it down quite a bit). None of this is new to Linux kernel development and mostly has gotten better these days.

This is a really bad characterisation of whats going on, its not that there is a group of people that have a problem with Kent, in general there is actually only one person that is causing all of the keffufle in the LKML with Kent, its Christian Brauner and they seem to have some movie worthy historic feud going on back decades.

And what Neil said here https://lore.kernel.org/[email protected] .brown.name/ is also on the ball

But maybe we shouldn't. Maybe we should focus on saying what, exactly,
is unpleasant to look at and way. Or what exactly causes poor
funcationality.
"ugly" and "broken" are not particularly useful words in a technical
discussion. I understand people want to use them, but they really need
to be backed up with details. It is details that matter.

And if you actually bothered to read the thread, Christian actually apologized later on https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdeve...def06@brauner/

I see where you took that from. To be clear, what I meant by broken is
the device number switching that btrfs has been doing which has caused
so much pain already and is at least partially responsible for this
endless long discussion. I didn't mean "broken" as in the flag is
broken. I acknowledge that I failed to make that clearer.

Currently right now in LKML there is a lot of already existing bad behaviour and bcachefs/Kent just put a candle on that because Kent isn't tolerating it and also due to how big bcachefs as a feature is. As you can see just due to bcachefs touching a lot of existing Linux fs code that is broken there is a lot of contention between "wanting to fix this broken fs Linux code so we don't exacerbate the problem" vs "lets at least try and get bcachefs merged rather than being stuck in review for perpetuity due to bikeshedding/stonewalling"

I am positive once the initial spur of activity tapers off, things will settle down as far as Bcachefs is concerned. Life moves on.

This is already happening, in fact if Christian Brauner would have butted out on most of the discussions we would have gotten there way earlier but because he has so much power as part of the Linux dev's we have this annoying thing called power dynamics/politics going on.

[spicfoo]

Seriously your using this as an example?

You seem confused. I am not using that as an example. I am pointing out that someone else already did. You are free to believe one person is perfect and everyone else is to blame for their egos, that still doesn't change the fact that flames haven't died down. That's all there is to it. With that, I will move on

[mdedetrich]

You seem confused. I am not using that as an example. I am pointing out that someone else already did. You are free to believe one person is perfect and everyone else is to blame for their egos, that still doesn't change the fact that flames haven't died down. That's all there is to it. With that, I will move on

I am just saying that your implication that it somehow got worse compared to what it was before and/or that the current heated arguments are not justified is not really correct. Furthermore you were pinning the blame on Kent when tbh everyone is responsible here, not just Kent.

[fitzie]

The number of fights that has broken out since the code is merged?

Big fat zero

That entire episode was one big drama theatre, let it go.

i've already linked to one fight, and I'll report on the next one when if and when it happens. like I said, there's significant code/dev sharing that really needs to occur for bcachefs to flourish.

luckily christoph submitted a trivial patch to bcachefs and kent applied it, so there are positive signs for the future. https://lore.kernel.org/linux-bcache...3qz46txx7/T/#t

[spicfoo]

I am just saying that your implication that it somehow got worse compared to what it was before and/or that the current heated arguments are not justified is not really correct. .

What? Noone said or implied anything remotely close to that.

Furthermore you were pinning the blame on Kent when tbh everyone is responsible here, not just Kent.

You missed my point completely. I will say it again, regardless of who is to blame, your assertion that fights have gone away completely after the merge is incorrect. It hasn't.

[mdedetrich]

i've already linked to one fight, and I'll report on the next one when if and when it happens.

Uh why?

This cherry picking paints an inaccurate picture of whats going on at LKML

[fitzie]

Uh why?

This cherry picking paints an inaccurate picture of whats going on at LKML

why? because he's behavior is counter productive. Here's another thread just today of him acting badly, and it's up to everyone else to avoid taking it all personally (which it is). https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdeve...@4qtlfeh2jcri/

I could also point to him scolding developers for not documenting things to his satisfaction when he codes things wrong.

I've been a patreon support for many years of bcachefs, and I'm just amazed at how poorly he acts from time to time. I'll feel a lot less worried about this once he's able to adopt a standard kernel locking and standard block io layer (iomap). bcachefs is a bit of an island now, and that's going to have to change in order for bcachefs to be successful.

[mdedetrich]

why? because he's behavior is counter productive. Here's another thread just today of him acting badly, and it's up to everyone else to avoid taking it all personally (which it is). https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdeve...@4qtlfeh2jcri/

His tone is sensationalist but this is a far cry of what was being implied. Also his swearing isn't directed at a person, its being used as rhetoric.

Your making a mountain out of a molehill, there is far worse on LKML.

[Hans Bull]

Snowflakes and CoC warriors whine and cry, but the bcachefs caravan goes on.