GNOME 3.12 Might Come To Fedora 20, Packages Available

[finalzone]

As someone who regularly fills pretty much all of the above mentioned roles, I would just like to ask everyone to stop with the "Gnome Shell is not suitable for developers"-meme as it is becoming quite tiresome.

Agreed, as a maintainer of Fedora Design Suite, I was delighted to hear electronic engineers uses Gnome Shell in their work.

[Bucic]

Gnome 3.8 landed in Fedora months after it's release, Mesa 10 will land months and months after its release so no, Fedora stopped being exciting long time ago. So when I heard about the .next my reaction was positive because IMO it's to go .next or to die already.

I've been using Fedora for over a year, now looking for something like 'make me a usable system' script for Arch Linux.

[sarmad]

As someone who regularly fills pretty much all of the above mentioned roles, I would just like to ask everyone to stop with the "Gnome Shell is not suitable for developers"-meme as it is becoming quite tiresome.

As a software engineer, I would second that. It's really absurd to call Gnome Shell not suitable for developers.

[Delgarde]

As someone who regularly fills pretty much all of the above mentioned roles, I would just like to ask everyone to stop with the "Gnome Shell is not suitable for developers"-meme as it is becoming quite tiresome.

Likewise. If you don't like current Gnome, that's fine, but don't project your opinion on everyone else, claiming that it's impossible for developers to use it. That claim is disproven constantly by myself and many of the developers I work with...

[kigurai]

Now, none of the preceding would matter if fedora didn't specifically create a prd for the ws that called out "developers" (my term for sysadmins, software engineers, and cs students) as the target. To that end, I know that gnome has some fundamental design issues that upstream simply won't touch (as they say, if it's a problem of design, it's not a problem) so fedora is in a position where it will need to make some decisions.

As someone who regularly fills pretty much all of the above mentioned roles, I would just like to ask everyone to stop with the "Gnome Shell is not suitable for developers"-meme as it is becoming quite tiresome.

[liam]

I read all your posts to desktop@ (I'm assuming you're Liam Bulkley, here). You seemed to be working from a basis that GNOME is "touch inspired and consumption-focused", which it really isn't, which makes it hard to put a lot of stock in the conclusions you drew from there. (I'm one of about three people actually using GNOME on a touch device at present, and if you do that, it's painfully obvious it's not based around touch *at all*). It's designed to be *distraction free*, which is as important to engineers as anyone. I work on Fedora all day long, and I find GNOME 3 the best environment in which to do it. I don't need a *complex* desktop environment to do productive engineering work, because the desktop itself is not what you use to do productive work. It's a framework that, for me at least, works best when it's as unobtrusive as possible. You didn't make any concrete suggestions that I can see - the closest I can see is "What I would like to see is Fedora's designers look at any perceived problems in G3's DESIGN and propose some solutions." and "I see no reason why Fedora can't address some of the design short comings of Gnome that Gnome developers won't really touch.", but that's still pretty vague. It's also kind of a dead letter, because AFAIK, all the most active Fedora design team members are actually active in GNOME design as well. So, it's not particularly surprising that your emails got a muted response. I don't like the word 'meritocracy' (because F/OSS projects rarely really are pure meritocracies, if they're being honest with themselves, and even when they are they have biased entry criteria which is a huge problem in itself, but let's not get into that), but you shouldn't expect your views to be acted upon or even responded to *just because you post them*, in the context of a major project like Fedora.next: people have to find them interesting / useful / compelling. I know this sounds harsh, but...it's kind of the truth. (note: I'm not on the desktop WG, this is not An Official Voice talking to you. Just my interpretation.) also, on a purely practical level, your quoting style makes it very difficult to figure out which bits of your post are yours, and which bits are quotes. This may be a bug in your client (phone?) - it looks like maybe it can't quote flowed paragraphs correctly. What kind of a response to your emails were you expecting, in an ideal case?

First, I just found out that many of my emails weren't being received by the list since my client (gmail) sent them from my work address (yay!). I've since re-sent them, but, since some of them go back to feb 11, I don't expect to generate much comment. While I would certainly agree that GS is very consumer centric (the design is optimized for full-screen usage, they focus on building "basic apps", ) I wouldn't say it was designed for the touchscreen (though they certainly have had touchscreens in mind going back to the GS design document). I know you've recently managed to get fedora running on a tablet so you know, first-hand, what it's like, but you're not the first to do this. My girlfriend runs GS on her x230t (and before that, x220t) so I've been able to see how it works with touch. I've posted, in various places, about my experiences, and they were not positive. However, it would require a substantial naivete to think that touch wasn't on their minds when they decided on such huge targets (I'm aware of larger target=easier to hit with mouse, but there is a nice little curve that demonsrates this, that derives from observational data applied to fitts' law, and I don't think they used the correct a and b values, but I've not measured...IOW, stuff too big). Secondly, the idea of monotasking doesn't lend itself well to multi-monitor setups (GS is particularly bad with this area). Before I go any further, I am also aware of mutter's side-tiling ability but that is simply too inflexible. For one thing, I often need to have more than two windows on the screen at a time (for a laptop, this isn't such a big deal, but once you move to larger screens or multi-screens, the GS designs really make less and less sense), and even if I only needed two windows, I don't necessarily need them to be the same size (in fact, I think it is the odd-occasion where I would want them to be the same size). I'm going to stop b/c you may not be interested, and it's all a bit beside the point, but I hope next time you'll look at the substance of an argument rather than filtering it based on where you think it's coming from. Now, none of the preceding would matter if fedora didn't specifically create a prd for the ws that called out "developers" (my term for sysadmins, software engineers, and cs students) as the target. To that end, I know that gnome has some fundamental design issues that upstream simply won't touch (as they say, if it's a problem of design, it's not a problem) so fedora is in a position where it will need to make some decisions. I've spoken about those on the list, and made, what I think, are reasonable suggestions to move forward. The reason why they aren't precise is: 1. I didn't want to bog down that level of discussion with detail, 2. I don't necessarily have the solutions. With regards to the second one, you've got some fedora designers who do have the knowledge/ability to help with this but they aren't working with the gnome team to my knowledge. The gnome team, despite protestations, isn't very welcoming of outsiders who aren't completely on-board with their ideas. I'm not going to link to evidence, but you can find out what I'm talking about if you're interested. So, what would I have liked the responses to looks like? Well, for some reason you asked about in an "ideal case" so to that end, ideally, they would've taken my comments upon high and chartered them into the foundation of the Fedora Project, to be forevermore to be looked upon with awe, and inciting such devotion to making the desktop actually better that it ACTUALLY becomes better... More realistically I was hoping for people to say, "yeah, we plan on doing that", or, "why do you think this is needed?". Lastly, I'm not sure what's wrong with your client but I looked on-line and my responses weren't garbled and included quotes. I'm guessing it might be the html that is a problem for you? If that's the case, I may have to move to a new client.

[zigfreed]

Death of Fedora, Long Live Fedora!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOFud4cgtV0[/url]

All the arguments in that YouTube video addressed a 'why are we shrinking' comment not 'what do you think of the change.' The change is to get more application developers and I agree with the assessment that Fedora is currently a production preview release of upstream.

It has always appeared to me that since Fedora typically directs bug reports upstream, you'd be better to contribute directly to the main project instead of Fedora. In this regard, no change is going to promote more Fedora developers because they're heading upstream. It may however encourage more developers to use Fedora.

Lastly, I don't understand having issues with Gnome 3. It's significantly faster (Super,g,e,Enter = gedit; Super,t,e,Enter=terminal) than anything else I've used and the extensions are a lot better than the Gnome 2 way of running a bunch of small applications with windows consuming space on the screen and taskbar.

At the 43:00 mark, I was surprised that the KDE user didn't recognize that a KDE-only integration isn't nearly as complete as the Gnome-only integration and configuration utilities like policycoreutils-gui don't have a KDE counterpart. A Fedora.next Workstation that primarily uses KDE is going to have to have the gnome libraries installed to do basic configuration anyway.

[AdamW]

I was at flock where a lot of f.N was hammered out, and I like the idea, but I really don't like how they seem to ignore other voices. Unless you are a well known contributor, or a bombastic troll you simply get ignored even if no one is addressing your concerns. That has me worried. ...and they wonder how to increase the signal to noise ratio amongst the community... In short, if you want them to address your point, you apparently need to be an unsocial ass. Simply commenting in thread after thread does nothing.

I read all your posts to desktop@ (I'm assuming you're Liam Bulkley, here). You seemed to be working from a basis that GNOME is "touch inspired and consumption-focused", which it really isn't, which makes it hard to put a lot of stock in the conclusions you drew from there. (I'm one of about three people actually using GNOME on a touch device at present, and if you do that, it's painfully obvious it's not based around touch *at all*). It's designed to be *distraction free*, which is as important to engineers as anyone. I work on Fedora all day long, and I find GNOME 3 the best environment in which to do it. I don't need a *complex* desktop environment to do productive engineering work, because the desktop itself is not what you use to do productive work. It's a framework that, for me at least, works best when it's as unobtrusive as possible.

You didn't make any concrete suggestions that I can see - the closest I can see is "What I would like to see is Fedora's designers look at any perceived problems in G3's DESIGN and propose some solutions." and "I see no reason why Fedora can't address some of the design short comings of Gnome that Gnome developers won't really touch.", but that's still pretty vague. It's also kind of a dead letter, because AFAIK, all the most active Fedora design team members are actually active in GNOME design as well.

So, it's not particularly surprising that your emails got a muted response. I don't like the word 'meritocracy' (because F/OSS projects rarely really are pure meritocracies, if they're being honest with themselves, and even when they are they have biased entry criteria which is a huge problem in itself, but let's not get into that), but you shouldn't expect your views to be acted upon or even responded to *just because you post them*, in the context of a major project like Fedora.next: people have to find them interesting / useful / compelling. I know this sounds harsh, but...it's kind of the truth. (note: I'm not on the desktop WG, this is not An Official Voice talking to you. Just my interpretation.)

also, on a purely practical level, your quoting style makes it very difficult to figure out which bits of your post are yours, and which bits are quotes. This may be a bug in your client (phone?) - it looks like maybe it can't quote flowed paragraphs correctly.

What kind of a response to your emails were you expecting, in an ideal case?

[liam]

Fedora is too cliquish, and doesn't really want outsiders views.

I was at flock where a lot of f.N was hammered out, and I like the idea, but I really don't like how they seem to ignore other voices. Unless you are a well known contributor, or a bombastic troll you simply get ignored even if no one is addressing your concerns. That has me worried. ...and they wonder how to increase the signal to noise ratio amongst the community... In short, if you want them to address your point, you apparently need to be an unsocial ass. Simply commenting in thread after thread does nothing.

[justmy2cents]

too troll; didn't read

you wanted to prove my point about fedora "can't hear ya" and "we know better"? #.#' watch video i posted link for and then figure out why fedora is losing people. whole FOSDEM session could be summarised in "please, give us feedback" and "lalalala, we know better so stfu pleaser".

FYI, me and most friends were running fedora from start. more or less we all moved to korora. but, based on how F.N. is moving that will probably change too since for ?community? project you're damn picky on what community is