Voting Proposed For Debian Jessie's Init System

[profoundWHALE]

What I like in that is

If you decide to reimplement one of the APIs for which "Reimplementable independently" is "no", then we won't stop you, but you are on your own.

...

Of course, one last thing I can't make myself not ask you before we finish here, and before you start reimplementing these APIs in your distribution: are you sure it's time well spent if you work on reimplementing all this code instead of just spending it on adopting systemd on your distro as well?

HEY CANONICAL, I THINK HE'S TALKING ABOUT YOU.

[mrugiero]

According to the link jonnor provided earlier (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Soft...tabilityChart/)
that isn't supported either (Reimplementable Independently is No).

I wonder what "independently" and "supported" means in the context, though. As I see it, "supported" means they'll make sure it is, but it was clearly doable, as not reimplementable implies not portable (think of porting as the minimal reimplementation you can do), and Canonical managed to port it to Upstart. "Independently" may as well mean that it can be a completely independent tool, not specifically not depending on systemd, but on any init system. So, it wasn't refuted that it can't be implemented independently by the fact it was ported to Upstart, but kind of reinforced: it wasn't made a stand-alone tool, but had to be ported to another init system.

[Pajn]

As I understands it....
The external dbus protocol in logind was supposed to be usable in other implementations of the protocol. Logind was written as a implementation of this for systemd.
But Canonical instead ported logind to upstart. This is and was not supported by upstream systemd so the internal api between systemd and logind don't have any stability guaranties. Only the external interfaces have that.

According to the link jonnor provided earlier (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Soft...tabilityChart/)
that isn't supported either (Reimplementable Independently is No).

[Akka]

Thanks for the pointer. So logind is meant to be part of systemd only.

As I understands it....
The external dbus protocol in logind was supposed to be usable in other implementations of the protocol. Logind was written as a implementation of this for systemd.
But Canonical instead ported logind to upstart. This is and was not supported by upstream systemd so the internal api between systemd and logind don't have any stability guaranties. Only the external interfaces have that.

[valeriodean]

Fortunately, that's true. But what part of "trying to" you don't understand?

And what part of "nobody forced other project to use any part of systemd (as per logind)" you don't understand?

You are free to use their software as well as they are free to develop it following the direction they have in mind.
You don't like the direction? Good, then you can:
- fork it
- adopt a different project
- maintain the old project
- start a new one

[You-]

This is unsupported and the implementation is already broken compared to newest SystemD.

You can't expect systemd maintainers to support alternatives to their software.

Here is a hint: they work on Systemd because they consider it the superior way. It is the job of those who disagree with that to provide support and maintain the alternative.

An alternative even exists: consolekit. But all you see is the nonsystemd crown bitching about systemd instead of maintaining this alternative (let alone adding logind-compatible interfaces)

The choices are that either Debian Jessie goes with Systemd or it will have subpar or aging Gnome AND KDE as both will be utilising systemd features.

[panda84]

Lennart Poettering made a post on G+ bragging that its broken.
https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoet...ts/8RmiAQsW9qf

Thanks for the pointer. So logind is meant to be part of systemd only.

[Pajn]

What do you mean for "unsupported"?
Here it's marked as "Completed on 2013-05-29":

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-1303-consolekit-logind-migration

And how is it broken? Any specific bug report?

Lennart Poettering made a post on G+ bragging that its broken.

https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/8RmiAQsW9qf

The last time they tried that they took logind out of the systemd tree and ported it to Upstart. logind of course is one of the components of systemd where we explicitly documented that it is not a component you can rip out of systemd. And of course, just a few months after Canonical did this, things are broken again, and this was to be expected: logind now uses the new cgroups userspace APIs (as mentioned above), and hence it will not run without systemd around. So Ubuntu is stuck with an old and unsupported version of logind. If they advocate this as a solution, then they are in ignorance onthat what they have is already out-of-date. (And yeah, this matters, for example all the nifty stuff that allows Wayland to run nicely without privs is implemented in the newer logind versions, and not in Canonical's forked version).

[panda84]

This is unsupported and the implementation is already broken compared to newest SystemD.

What do you mean for "unsupported"?
Here it's marked as "Completed on 2013-05-29":

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-1303-consolekit-logind-migration

And how is it broken? Any specific bug report?

[Pajn]

Huh?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMyMDE

https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+archive/logind

http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/...-logind.8.html

This is unsupported and the implementation is already broken compared to newest SystemD.