Ubuntu Board Votes On Non-Free Software Option

[blackiwid]

1. that was not only a quote that was aimed against flash but all closed-source propriatary software. Thats not extreme we both cant know it, so you have to trust, or do you have the source code. And jsut because they dont mass-spy all stuff everytime, it could be in backdoors to watch people that they want to. Or other stuff that starts under some conditions not on each user. So you have no control, what happens. You cant know it so you have to trust, and I am not trusting any corporation because its their only goal to make money. And I set examples in the past (Sony rootkit) where they did really bad things.

They can as example only release a buggyer version for linux which more often crash get money from ms, to do this to make linux a bad name. So how can you exclude such possibility?

You cant, me and you have no source code, and if you make by using that stuff help the company to distribute that stuff you create pressure to people that they use it also or they cannot watch such stuff.

I think its not worth to talk about that dieing peace of software. Because if youtube works without it (even better less cpu load) nearly nobody is interessted in the other features of flash, maybe 1% of all users will install it for some flash games or so. Even if I am wrong and more people still use it it will be less people than today so, even Steve Jobs said that its a peace of shit software by technical reasons I go with him there.

[ean5533]

Thats not extreme we both cant know it, so you have to trust, or do you have the source code.

Do you have the source code for your motherboard's BIOS? I bet you don't. Therefore you don't REALLY know what your motherboard's firmware is doing behind the scenes. It might be silently taking every bit that's read from RAM and copying it to the ethernet port, sending it out over the wire to a pre-programmed IP. So I hope you compiled your motherboard's firmware yourself, otherwise who KNOWS what kind of terrible things the man might be doing.

Hell, forget about your computer -- how about the firmware in your standalone Bluray/DVD/CD player? How about the GPS device running in your car? How about your $5 cell phone? All of these things have code running on them that you don't have access to, yet somehow you manage to live your life while using them. And I'll bet they're pretty decent products, too.

The point that you're pushing an extremist stance regarding userland software that is not only inconvenient for users, but completely useless considering all the other attack vectors that you're ignoring. It's like insisting that everyone in the world must have a 10-inch steel door with 15 locks on it, but ignoring the fact that they leave their windows open all day when they feel like airing out the house. And I've got a funny feeling people will get tired of locking those 15 locks pretty quickly, too.

But hey, feel free to ignore my advice live out your extremist agenda. It's no skin off my nose if you like tinfoil hats. Just stop trying to preach it to everyone else when they've already told you once to shut up.

[blackiwid]

so its a view point if I am extreme or not, but forget about me, lets say in your example, somebody let people live for free in their houses or even give them away for free, the only condition is to use such from you described doors they are buildin, and the only thing is that they say if you wanna sell or give it away again you have to put in that doors again or let it in in the first place. So whats your problem with that? Respect the house-builders wishes or dont use the house.

If I would be extreme I would demand that ubuntu would remove that easy install options and if they dont I would aktivily fight em and would nobody tell to use Ubuntu. So I care about freedom, but I respekt if other people don?t and manuelly install some blackboxes that nobody except the programmers who build it and maybe the company knows what that does.

The Bios is a problem, yes I am waiting to get that fixed, if I have really no choice I go for bios but I think I will not get a board with EFI included because its bigger so more place for harmfull stuff.

But again to point to other problems does not make this problem go away. I change first what I can change easier then I go further if possible.

With your argument, you can point out one unethical or unmoralic example and then completly forget about such catagories in any other aspect of your life. Thats no good thing. But again if you must go on with flash and non-free driver, but its a difference if one user or some users decide to use such stuff or if a distribution decides that for all users. They have more responsibilities.

Its like when you look at copies of non-free software, if you do that as a company its much worse legaly then do it for your personal live, same its with drugs at least in theorie in my country.

[ean5533]

so its a view point if I am extreme or not, but forget about me, lets say in your example, somebody let people live for free in their houses or even give them away for free, the only condition is to use such from you described doors they are buildin, and the only thing is that they say if you wanna sell or give it away again you have to put in that doors again or let it in in the first place. So whats your problem with that? Respect the house-builders wishes or dont use the house.

Your analogy is fundamentally flawed. You're trying to say that the GPL requires that non-free software is not installed by default. You've already been proven wrong on that point by someone else, so I'm not going to waste my time repeating it.

Actually, I'm not going to waste any more time with this conversation at all. You've already decided that non-free software is evil ("morally wrong"), and you're preaching your morals no differently than people preach their religion. There's no point discussing it any further because you clearly aren't even listening to us; you're just waiting for your chance to advocate your point while ignoring ours.

[blackiwid]

I said it I am no laywer are you? if not we can not clear that point. But 1. I insult nobody of you personaly. I am not saying that you are a extremist or something like that. We have different viewpoints but I accept that people have different view points that I have.

So if ubuntu would do that maybe they are really legaly untouchable but some users would go away. So if they wanna loose some (we all do not have numbers how many of linux users care about freedom and how much use it just because its a better os) they can go ahead, but I think they would loose more users and more reputation, then they would get new users because they dont have to make this 2 extra clicks, because its still easier to install that drivers in ubuntu than its in windows.

But yes you are right it makes no sense to flame about a decition that is fallen anyway and is such minimal change anyway.

[blackiwid]

btw I am no laywer you are not too, so proving wrong or right is not the point its just different view points.

Btw it?s not only a question if its legaly allowed or not, its also if a distro vendor want to be the bad boys (from the viewpoint of the bad bad extremists, or people who want as much freedom as they can get) or if they make a windows like os with a bit other gui.

Again nothing what novell did in the past was legaly wrong I think, but they lost much reputation. And you can not win against the free world in a long run. Thats the point why linux is such successful, because there are people who are idealistic and open.

Lets call it open like thats the "practical" interpretation of the gpl. So even they respect gpk and also the spirit of it, and like the idea of it. Its just a better marketing word. But lets stop it here, we will not (at least right now) come to the same conclusion and you trust such companys or you dont care about possible exploids of your trust I dont do and most developers who share their work under a gpl lisence dont do too. Let it be but stop flaming around and insulting people, just because you have to click 2 times in your gui and reboot one time on a installation that works then for 3-5-10 years. That?s absurd.

[yogi_berra]

Again nothing what novell did in the past was legaly wrong I think, but they lost much reputation. And you can not win against the free world in a long run. Thats the point why linux is such successful, because there are people who are idealistic and open.

Is that why the Hurd is such a widely used kernel with just 10 (1) known users? Or is free software just winning (2) ala Charlie Sheen when all evidence points to less than one percent (3) of desktop users using Linux?


(1) http://popcon.debian.org/
(2) http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=190984532
(3) http://marketshare.hitslink.com/oper...e.aspx?qprid=8

[crazycheese]

That?s absurd.

You are right.
Ignore the idiots and trolls.

Only open source can solve the problems, and in order for open source be useful we need open source companies and we need clarification for normal people to stop supporting (paying) proprietary crap companies; we need laws that will prevent setting anything proprietary as a standard of any kind(what flash thing); we need payment system that will allow for open source products(where work itself is a product, not information). And most of all, we need to ignore the blabla idiots and have lots of patience.

[crazycheese]

Do you have the source code for your motherboard's BIOS? I bet you don't. Therefore you don't REALLY know what your motherboard's firmware is doing behind the scenes. It might be silently taking every bit that's read from RAM and copying it to the ethernet port, sending it out over the wire to a pre-programmed IP. So I hope you compiled your motherboard's firmware yourself, otherwise who KNOWS what kind of terrible things the man might be doing.

BIOS firmware is only 1Mbit long and has been disassembled many many times. In fact, 99% of proprietary companies have special teams or contracts to "illegally" disassemble the code of concurrence. Talk about double standards.

Hell, forget about your computer -- how about the firmware in your standalone Bluray/DVD/CD player? How about the GPS device running in your car? How about your $5 cell phone? All of these things have code running on them that you don't have access to, yet somehow you manage to live your life while using them. And I'll bet they're pretty decent products, too.

Only idiots use Bluray. Its outdated, conflicting, has incredibly low value per dollar. But wait, I play my OGGs/FLACs -encoded CC-licensed music in cowon player and its working FINE. Its good feeling to support people that don't sh1t on your head.

The point that you're pushing an extremist stance regarding userland software that is not only inconvenient for users, but completely useless considering all the other attack vectors that you're ignoring.

You know what "russian roulette" is?
Take an empty revolver, insert a bullet and try your luck. Lets insert them?
Proprietary is a black box, open source is not. Thats one bullet for proprietary.
Proprietary can only be improved by company(to their desire or physical possibility), where with opensource everyone is free to check, post bugs or fix. Another bullet for proprietary.
If proprietary is incompatible to your taste, but is set as standard, you cannot have no choice. Yet another bullet for proprietary.
Given the situation you use opensource everything running on proprietary BIOS, you will still have way less to worry about, thanks to problems not heaping up. Again a bullet for proprietary.
If you use or support proprietary nothing will change. Your future will stay same. Another bullet for proprietary.
And finally, lets assume linux will be preinstalled on 99,99% desktop computers in the world and microsoft on only 0,5%. A very realistic call, no sarcasm. How will number of attackers change? It will stay same. But thanks to less suck-iness, the software will be fixed much sooner, money will be redistributed much more precise(much more salary for coders), there will be no need to purchase antivirus subscriptions(sec hackers will be actually paid for fixing problems in the software itself), people will be not put to jail for handling information the way it is designed to be handled - by copying it and no more IP mess, no more DRM, no more DMCA. Huge advantages! Last bullet for proprietary.

Revolver is loaded, you have crappy 0% chance.

It's like insisting that everyone in the world must have a 10-inch steel door with 15 locks on it, but ignoring the fact that they leave their windows open all day when they feel like airing out the house. And I've got a funny feeling people will get tired of locking those 15 locks pretty quickly, too.

Yeah, 15 locks if you use shitty windows, correct. I remember that times very good.
If you use linux, you need messing with zero locks and be extremely secure.

But hey, feel free to ignore my advice live out your extremist agenda. It's no skin off my nose if you like tinfoil hats. Just stop trying to preach it to everyone else when they've already told you once to shut up.

He is not extremist - he is enlightened. You are extreme ignorant. Same way Tsiolkovsky and Bruno were not extremists, but were seen as such by ignorant trolling fathead consumers/sextants such as yourself.

But the magic thing is that dinosaurs eventually die, no matter how big or toothy they are.

[crazycheese]

Bullshit. You claim to not be an extremist after making an extreme argument equating Flash with a root kit which you know damn well that it isn't.

Watching a cat video has never killed anything but time, watching a music video has never "unpowered" anyone, and while some videos may make you a little queasy, the codec they use is not unethical. If you are worried about being "spied upon" run a packet sniffer and you will soon see that you are, in fact, not being spied upon when you watch a flash video.

You really are grasping at straws to support an untenable position.

How is he precisely gasping straws, when he claims that pandora box is pandora box?
10 years ago my machine was infected with blaster worm via undocumented RFC service, I was watching a vid with a cat. Cats are the true reason for the world gets proprietary crap preinstalled and get addiction to that, yes.