Debian Policy 4.7 Outlines Latest Packaging/System Guidelines

[spicfoo]

I think we somehow need to fix the negative inertia in Debian or else we'll end in a bad spot.

All the whining about IBM or Microsoft isn't going to help Debian or any open source project one bit. If you want to contribute, step up and do that.

[sophisticles]

All the whining about IBM or Microsoft isn't going to help Debian or any open source project one bit. If you want to contribute, step up and do that.

Even if one where inclined to do so, most of these projects are run by people with their heads so far up their asses that the only full moon they can see is their own.

Does anything you read in the links I provided give you any indication that anyone at that project is willing to use their brains and do things differently?

[spicfoo]

Even if one where inclined to do so, most of these projects are run by people with their heads so far up their asses that the only full moon they can see is their own.

Does anything you read in the links I provided give you any indication that anyone at that project is willing to use their brains and do things differently?

Maybe, maybe not. Debian is one of the oldest distributions with plenty of contributors who believe in it to contribute their time voluntarily. Even if I don't I respect than much more than whining about it or other companies.

[cen1]

All the whining about IBM or Microsoft isn't going to help Debian or any open source project one bit. If you want to contribute, step up and do that.

I am actually but it is a slow process and Debian doesn't make it easy for newcomers.

1. Debian Wiki is a vast source of outdated information
2. Needed an hour to figure out how to properly use debbugs. Using mailing lists for bug tracking is simply unacceptable in 2024. How can you attract a new user if they need to learn to use a program to submit a simple bug?
3. Submitting a patch is one thing but some package releases take months even if you track sid. On top of that, a lot of core packages are searching for maintainers (xz story - no maintainer for 10 years I believe), or devscripts (scripts which debian developers are supposedly using are searching for a maintainer since 2015, how is that even possible??)
4. Build system is a mix of python, perl, bash and make depending on what you do
5. Reproducible build team needed 5 years to get going because the snapshots team can't fix a simple caching system

The list goes on an on but as you said, the only way to move anything forward is to volunteer and do something about it. Realistically, you'd need to assemble a team who is persistent and constantly pestering people to get anything done.

[DMJC]

The biggest problem in Linux/Open Source now is code rot. We're losing all of the desktop software to it. Sure the biggest apps are still ok, but it's getting really bad. I used Nemiver as a debugger for years, GNOME have killed it off and Debian has dropped the package. Pidgin's facebook plugin has code rotted because the developers had a ridiculously unmanageable repository system. I forked it, modernised it and updated the build system to Meson. I tried to update the code on the Facebook plugin to match the current bitlbee code but it's just beyond my skills as a programmer. I'm worried about the future of MATE and other desktops that are derived from GTK. As GNOME/GTK Roll forward I can see a time when GTK3 gets dumped from distros. This can't be allowed to happen, either GTK3 needs to fork off and become a new development path e.g gtk+-4.0 or we need a GTK-alike API that is going to get maintained. GTK4 removes features that existed in GTK1/2/3 which changes the user experience in a bad way. I use two 30" Dell Monitors. I need a system which is going to let me work in a certain workflow style. I hate the modern touchscreen derived interfaces as they are inefficient and get in the way. I want a stable UI layout which doesn't change. I just want more apps to be developed. I don't mind if the backend changes e.g systemd/wayland etc. But don't use those infrastructure changes as a reason to throw out the UI layout. If people want more UI choices, you can implement newer UIs without destroying other people's workflows. e.g I love the older Applications menu from MATE, but I don't begrudge the Cinnamon Project's choice to implement a Windows 7/Vista style menu. Just give me the option to choose which one I want. Choice is great and it's why Linux is better than Windows. Microsoft don't give you choice, hell they're blocking UI customisations now because it interferes with their ads.

[spicfoo]

The list goes on an on but as you said, the only way to move anything forward is to volunteer and do something about it. Realistically, you'd need to assemble a team who is persistent and constantly pestering people to get anything done.

Yep. Assembling a team and doing all the grunt work that is required or making it easier is precisely what a company like IBM or Microsoft pays people for. In the absence of that, with mostly volunteers, you can still move forward but as you discovered it will be a slow boring process. This is precisely why the successful and large open source projects are largely driven by commercial vendors these days. The exceptions are going to have a harder time onboarding people and getting them be effective.

[qarium]

The biggest problem in Linux/Open Source now is code rot. We're losing all of the desktop software to it. Sure the biggest apps are still ok, but it's getting really bad. I used Nemiver as a debugger for years, GNOME have killed it off and Debian has dropped the package. Pidgin's facebook plugin has code rotted because the developers had a ridiculously unmanageable repository system. I forked it, modernised it and updated the build system to Meson. I tried to update the code on the Facebook plugin to match the current bitlbee code but it's just beyond my skills as a programmer. I'm worried about the future of MATE and other desktops that are derived from GTK. As GNOME/GTK Roll forward I can see a time when GTK3 gets dumped from distros. This can't be allowed to happen, either GTK3 needs to fork off and become a new development path e.g gtk+-4.0 or we need a GTK-alike API that is going to get maintained. GTK4 removes features that existed in GTK1/2/3 which changes the user experience in a bad way. I use two 30" Dell Monitors. I need a system which is going to let me work in a certain workflow style. I hate the modern touchscreen derived interfaces as they are inefficient and get in the way. I want a stable UI layout which doesn't change. I just want more apps to be developed. I don't mind if the backend changes e.g systemd/wayland etc. But don't use those infrastructure changes as a reason to throw out the UI layout. If people want more UI choices, you can implement newer UIs without destroying other people's workflows. e.g I love the older Applications menu from MATE, but I don't begrudge the Cinnamon Project's choice to implement a Windows 7/Vista style menu. Just give me the option to choose which one I want. Choice is great and it's why Linux is better than Windows. Microsoft don't give you choice, hell they're blocking UI customisations now because it interferes with their ads.

what you write here is a serious problem the point that GTK4+ drop features GTK1/2/3 had to abadon the old desktop workflow and enforce touchscreen derived workflow

many desktop people did just give up on gnome and are now switched to COSMIC ...

and yes we maybe need to fork GTK1/2/3 into a different project because GTK4+ will of course go with modern touch-screen derived interfaces only.

it really looks like COSMIC is the reason why no one cares about GTK4+ insanity anymore.

[qarium]

Even if one where inclined to do so, most of these projects are run by people with their heads so far up their asses that the only full moon they can see is their own.

you mean people with their heads so far up their asses like these people?:

"Data breach at Microsoft: Passwords and source code were apparently exposed on the Internet
Microsoft apparently misconfigured an Azure storage server. Allegedly, all sorts of sensitive company data was available to everyone.
Microsoft apparently misconfigured an Azure storage server.
A three-person research team from SOCRadar reportedly discovered a publicly accessible Microsoft storage server that stored sensitive internal information related to the Microsoft search engine Bing. According to a Techcrunch report, the discoverers informed Microsoft about the data leak on February 6th. The affected server was backed up around a month later - on March 5th.
According to Techcrunch, the storage server provided via Microsoft's own cloud service Azure contained source code, scripts and configuration files with passwords, keys and access data that were used by Microsoft employees to access other internal databases and systems.
SOCRadar CEO Huzeyfe Onal also points out the discovery of the unprotected server in a Linkedin post. One of the researchers involved emphasized to Techcrunch that the exposed data enabled attackers to identify and access other internal Microsoft systems. Possible consequences include, for example, major data leaks or the compromise of services used.
Data breaches by large corporations
It is unclear how long the affected storage server was freely accessible and whether malicious actors had already exploited the security hole. Despite being contacted by Techcrunch, Microsoft has not yet commented on the matter. Whether the group reset or changed the disclosed login information also remains unanswered.
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There have been similar incidents recently at other well-known companies. In January, for example, a report surfaced about source code and other sensitive data from Mercedes-Benz that had been in a publicly accessible Github repository for several months. At BMW, SOCRadar also discovered a misconfigured Azure bucket at the beginning of the year, which meant that anyone could access sensitive company data stored in it.
A data breach at Fujitsu discovered in March meant that the company's sensitive customer data and a list of plain text passwords were freely accessible to everyone for almost an entire year. In this case too, the cause was a misconfigured Azure bucket.
Not a good time for Microsoft
The special thing about the data leak at Microsoft, however, is that the company itself is the operator of the Azure cloud and should therefore be particularly well versed in appropriately securing the storage servers provided via it. However, the fact that Microsoft does not have its digital "crown jewels" under control is no longer a surprise given the security incidents that the company has had to contend with in recent months."

https://www.golem.de/news/datenpanne-bei-microsoft-passwoerter-und-quellcode-lagen-wohl-offen-im-netz-2404-183999.amp.html