Devuan 4.0 Released As Debian 11 Without Systemd

[jacob]

Managing your DNS resolution? Ehhhhhh

C'mon, you know that pid1 doesn't do that, do you?

Replacing syslog with your own binary log format and tools to access and manage them? Well now we're just being silly.

It has been discussed many times but the point is that binary or not, journalctl is better than syslog: it's structured (syslog is a stream of octets), it's indexed (syslog... nope the best you have there is grep) and it's tamper proof (syslog isn't).[/QUOTE]

Like, it's all well and good that all these utilities exist, but many of them seem to be solving problems that didn't exist.

The problems of reliable service management, having a system configuration API (not just text config files), better log management and more have always existed. The fact that someone just took those problems as a fact of life and didn't think they could or should be solved, or that he came up with some ductape shell hack to work around them, doesn't mean they shouldn't be addressed.

[squash]

The other bits are mostly separate from PID1..

The argument against is why include everything in the same project, but that's also why I like systemd. That allows me to have a consistent and integrated experience to do most of the basic things I want to do.

I also don't mean to take away from Devuan's work - competition can be good.

Mostly separate, yet somehow still together. Systemd didn't just replace pid 1, pid 1 was just the thing that got it in the door. Glad you like it, but let's be honest... systemd is doing their own thing, in a not-very-unix way, introduced a bunch of "unless you're on linux, in which case you need to do..." caveats for people who use other unix systems (yes this is a thing)... Not even knocking it's developers on quality but I disagree with them on scope.

[squash]

I get the philosophical hate for it around doing too much and binary logs being a sin, but has it been an improvement in the real world? When I was investigating a gnome shell extension crash after a resume from a screen blank, it was actually quite easy to get details out of journalctl. For many users, I'm not sure they would even know where to start investigating a similar problem without systemd and random logs for different pieces of the puzzle all over the place.

This is largely subjective, but the answer is pretty clear to me: Even with systemd, you're still running a syslog daemon. You just have a completely different process for doing some things in Linux now than you do for any other unix or unix-like system.

[danmcgrew]

Init freedom... why can't I pick systemd? ;p

You most definitely can!
Simply choose to run Debian.
See how easy this is ?! No rocket science involved at all.

[squash]

C'mon, you know that pid1 doesn't do that, do you?

Obviously, but it was brought in under the pretext of replacing pid 1. We've got a better init system! But you're getting a dns resolver with it!

Anyway it clearly comes down to vanilla vs chocolate.

[jacob]

Obviously, but it was brought in under the pretext of replacing pid 1. We've got a better init system! But you're getting a dns resolver with it!

Anyway it clearly comes down to vanilla vs chocolate.

Systemd was brought in as a project to rebuild the userland. They started with pid1 but from day 1 it was said and understood what the goals are. That argument is like saying that GNU put a chess engine in a C compiler.

[S.Pam]

Mostly separate, yet somehow still together. Systemd didn't just replace pid 1, pid 1 was just the thing that got it in the door. Glad you like it, but let's be honest... systemd is doing their own thing, in a not-very-unix way, introduced a bunch of "unless you're on linux, in which case you need to do..." caveats for people who use other unix systems (yes this is a thing)... Not even knocking it's developers on quality but I disagree with them on scope.

What gets to me is that systemd replaced some common things with its own implementation,but changed the defaults which is causing problems. For example fstab.

Anyway, in parallel with Devuian we have Alpine and Gentoo that also works well without systemd.

[intelfx]

I am one of those people sceptical about systemd, but even I agree it is a great piece of software for the most part.

I dislike some parts, like how systemd eats up traditional separate services like pamd, logind and init, and make them a monolithic service. I also dislike how systemd offers virtually no cooperation with said services, it is pretty much systemd or nothing.

except that systemd does not replace or supplant pam in any capacity, logind is literally a systemd service (what "traditional separate service" are you even talking about?) and everything else you mentioned or could have mentioned is a separate daemon under systemd — where is the "monolithic" part?

[Shiba]

Anyway, in parallel with Devuian we have Alpine and Gentoo that also works well without systemd.

Artix too, which has a really well done OpenRC implementation (I can't vouch for the other init systems because I haven't tried them).

[Rallos Zek]

If you hate yourself, if you want to suffer, you use a distro without systemd.
Of all the "questionable" things we discuss so heated in the community. systemd is the one that is by far the best software, and the arguments get the most esoteric until they turn into a personal issue with its original author.

systemd is cancer! Since I love myself so why would I willingly give my self cancer?