Debian Adds Another Option For Its Init System Diversity General Resolution

[cb88]

Glad I'm not the only one that spotted that. Last time around (about 5 years ago) he tried to hijack the process to get his way and then flipped out when it didn't work. IIRC, he proposal bombed everyone several times and often tried to rush them through with immediate calls for votes on his proposals. Also I think he did some dodgies in the wording trying to leave openings in opposing options for what he want. It's been a while and it was stupid enough I don't care to reread it for maximum accuracy.

Hopefully this time around he's learned a bit of chill. Still, I'd double-review anything he adds to make sure it's actually different enough to deserve its own option instead of just being vote-diluting bike-shedding soul-sucking minutia.

The 2nd worst part of that whole shitshow (after its very existence) was Russ Allbery's resignation from the TC. We lost a kind, level-headed committee voice because some people couldn't work together.

To be fair Ian is a fairly prolific developer in his own right... he wrote dpkg after all. If it weren't for systemd we'd have the occasional GR on init systems and it would be fine but systemd itself draws this sort of bad attention by rubbing everyone that dislikes it exactly the wrong way.

[cb88]

Glad I'm not the only one that spotted that. Last time around (about 5 years ago) he tried to hijack the process to get his way and then flipped out when it didn't work. IIRC, he proposal bombed everyone several times and often tried to rush them through with immediate calls for votes on his proposals. Also I think he did some dodgies in the wording trying to leave openings in opposing options for what he want. It's been a while and it was stupid enough I don't care to reread it for maximum accuracy.

Hopefully this time around he's learned a bit of chill. Still, I'd double-review anything he adds to make sure it's actually different enough to deserve its own option instead of just being vote-diluting bike-shedding soul-sucking minutia.

The 2nd worst part of that whole shitshow (after its very existence) was Russ Allbery's resignation from the TC. We lost a kind, level-headed committee voice because some people couldn't work together.

Well wouldn't you do everything you could to stop some crap for brains from your main competitor (RedHat) from taking over large aspects of how your distro functions?

[NotMine999]

I just read through all of the proposals and except of A all sound good to me. I don't even think C sounds too bad for non-systend users, since "Debian is committed to working with derivatives that make different choices about init systems", which basically is what's happening right now anyway. Honestly most new desktop programs which have background tasks rely on systemd, because it's so easy and comprehensive. In a way kinda "universal", that's what Debian tries to be. Sure there are edge cases where systemd is " over-the-top", like IoT-devices or servers with just one never-changing purpose, but would they use Debian in the first place?

Answering your question that I highlighted in BOLD:

Yes, in order to maintain a single common distribution in use within an enterprise. There is a Debian flavor available for Raspberry Pi, but not all IoT devices are based on that.

In some enterprises an internal repository server is maintained to examine external packages and control/deny usage. Having hundreds of servers all hit the Internet for updates is both bandwidth consuming for the business and reckless from a security viewpoint. Some of you might disagree, but large corporate businesses are generally like that.

Learning systemd and learning sysvinit are not mutually exclusive skills; most databases and many web applications are more complicated. A good sysadmin should be able to learn how to use both init systems and support both init systems, even if their primary focus is only 1 or the other.

[starshipeleven]

Yes, in order to maintain a single common distribution in use within an enterprise. There is a Debian flavor available for Raspberry Pi, but not all IoT devices are based on that.

I'm not sure IoT devices even need to be using the same "single common distribution" as servers, assuming the company makes and deploys their own IoT stuff for their own consumption.

In actual practice, most IoT stuff has its own firmware (a "linux-from-scratch" or something like OpenWrt or Yocto) with its own infrastructure and server (internal or external to the company) for updates and such.

[finalzone]

Well wouldn't you do everything you could to stop some crap for brains from your main competitor (RedHat) from taking over large aspects of how your distro functions?

Please do a proper research about systemd because it becomes clear your whole assumption is based on hearsay. Let remind some Red Hat developers either used Debian or were former Debian contributors. Like it or not, Red Hat plays a large role of Linux ecosystem benefiting everyone including Debian. It is a shame such attitude on that comment failed to grasp the benefit of a system manager for Linux kernel like systemd for their distribution instead of learning from the twenty years of wasting time duplicating inits for the sake of few.

[moilami]

I would vote against just because there is that clause demanding you can't say bad things about systemd or any other init system and you can't even mention a bug if it is off topic.

This must be a new world record in suppressing free speech, and it can affect seriously how information can spread.

[starshipeleven]

I would vote against just because there is that clause demanding you can't say bad things about systemd or any other init system and you can't even mention a bug if it is off topic.

This must be a new world record in suppressing free speech, and it can affect seriously how information can spread.

Free speech means you are not put in jail for what you say. Debian cannot place people in jail even if they wanted to.

You can call it censorship if you want (that is the correct term) but they are probably sick and tired of idiots flaming about init system dogma, it is an understandable rule for a community.

[cb88]

Please do a proper research about systemd because it becomes clear your whole assumption is based on hearsay. Let remind some Red Hat developers either used Debian or were former Debian contributors. Like it or not, Red Hat plays a large role of Linux ecosystem benefiting everyone including Debian. It is a shame such attitude on that comment failed to grasp the benefit of a system manager for Linux kernel like systemd for their distribution instead of learning from the twenty years of wasting time duplicating inits for the sake of few.

How about I continue perfectly fine on OpenRC without that steaming pile of crap from Lennart... I even bothered to figure out all my issues with pulseaudio so I wouldn't have to run it to get sournd with firefox, asound for instance acutally works if you poke all the right bits, my system is *Lennart Free*™

Also RedHat hasn't been the company it was in a long time, and is now a subsidary of IBM... so yeah maybe you should educate *yourself*

[moilami]

Free speech means you are not put in jail for what you say. Debian cannot place people in jail even if they wanted to.

You can call it censorship if you want (that is the correct term) but they are probably sick and tired of idiots flaming about init system dogma, it is an understandable rule for a community.

No, that is what you are being taught in preliminary school because it is easy for kids to understand while not confusing their minds with complexity of the subject and breaking their illusions.

There are various ways to limit free speech, for example domestically by saying angrily "I don't want to discuss this ever". Censorship is different action, and what happen with that proposal is exactly suppression of free speech.

[Britoid]

Well wouldn't you do everything you could to stop some crap for brains from your main competitor (RedHat) from taking over large aspects of how your distro functions?

Debian and Red Hat do not really compete.