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Ubuntu 18.04 LTS Continues Prepping With The Linux 4.15 Kernel
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Can someone explain to me why this is a problem when we have the HWE for LTS releases?
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the 4.16 release should be ready by 1 april so there is sufficient time to implement it.
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Originally posted by TemplarGR View PostPeople need to stop using Ubuntu and migrate to some proper distros like Archlinux for their desktops. Ubuntu is fine for your grandma but if you have bigger needs you need something better. Obviously server folks don't need this advice because they aren't using Ubuntu to begin with...
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Originally posted by jacob View PostOr it could be because whether "novice" or not, they have better and more interesting things to do than spending time configuring a distro or learning how to configure a distro. They - rightly - expect their computer to Just Work, all the while being a FOSS platform. Ubuntu is currently the closest thing to this ideal there is. Far from perfect, of course, but nothing comes close - except perhaps Mint and similar distros, which are themselves Ubuntu derivatives.
Expecting Linux desktop users to never have the need to configure anything is an utopia that will never happen. The best you can hope for is an intelligent user base that know how to handle things and help each other.
The irony of this is that Ubuntu in general from my 2 decade experience has MORE issues than most other distros, including Arch. With almost every new release there have been various obscure bugs and since Ubuntu is always changing everything for no apparent reason, it is always hard to pinpoint a solution. I remember stuff like audio missing, desktop crushes, network not working, and trying to troubleshoot said stuff for days. And the worst part is that most of those problems were NOT upstream issues and thus required ubuntu-specific solutions. The software is obsolete and if you want to run anything up-to-date with upstream you need to setup 100000s third party PPAs and make your installation liable to repo hell. Not to mention all the trust issues with 3rd party compiles.
Ubuntu is fine if you are a grandma who only uses Firefox to serf the web and use facebook. As soon as you need to go out of the beaten path all hell breaks loose. Ubuntu sucks.
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Originally posted by Zoll View PostWe have a proverb in Arabic (القاقلة تسير والكلاب تنبح) that perfectly describes the fanboyism in this thread. Numbers talk, the majority of the users are on Ubuntu (or one one of its derivatives) and would likely continue so in the foreseeable future. I find it insulting to suggest that Ubuntu users are "noobs" who do not know how to pick a proper OS, it reeks of elitism which the open source community continues to suffer from.
People use Ubuntu because people use Ubuntu. This is what gets most coverage from places like Phoronix, so obviously people use that. Michael keeps posting irrelevant posts about "Ubuntu upgraded this package and will use this package", like we should care, while not talking about other distros in that way.
And if you are going to use the "numbers=good argument", then Windows are the best OS ever existed.
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Originally posted by jacob View Post
People need to stop preaching. Seriously, zealotry, fanboyism and the constant urge to "convert" someone to use something is one big plague in the FOSS community. Ubuntu has its flaws, it also has its advantages and those who use it usually have good reasons to do so.
The only thing Ubuntu offers is a nice gui installer. Nothing else.
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We have a proverb in Arabic (القاقلة تسير والكلاب تنبح) that perfectly describes the fanboyism in this thread. Numbers talk, the majority of the users are on Ubuntu (or one one of its derivatives) and would likely continue so in the foreseeable future. I find it insulting to suggest that Ubuntu users are "noobs" who do not know how to pick a proper OS, it reeks of elitism which the open source community continues to suffer from.
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Originally posted by vito View PostJust want to point out, this is the exactly same reasoning that people use to explain why they use a MacOS or Windows instead of Linux.
Originally posted by vito View PostBut seriously, I help manage large number of Linux workstations and servers at work and I can tell you with confidence that the biggest problem people run into on Linux by far is the nvidia driver. Second biggest is installing 3rd party software.
Originally posted by vito View PostI'm afraid I have to disagree, but that is not the point. The point is that Unity was Ubuntu only and had things that broke apps on other distros (like indicators for example). It also made it a pain to port apps that were tied into Unity. I've actually heard cursing from the dev team when they were porting some Unity-based app.
Seriously, I believe that it is this mindset, more than anything else, that holds Linux back on the desktop. Developers must be able to assume and require certain functionalities (if you prefer, hard system dependencies). Say a personal contact management app is IMHO much more valuable if it has a polished UI including indicators and others bells and whistles (e.g. Unity dependency) and can automatically synchronise with a cloud at predefined intervals (systemd timers dependency), rather than if it doesn't do any of these things, but is able to run under twm and expects users to write a crontab. The fact that in the latter case it woudn't "fragment" anything would be a meagre consolation and certainly wouldn't get anywhere near making Linux competitive on the desktop.
Originally posted by vito View PostI never said anyone was evil. And I also never said that there was anything wrong with any other desktop that plays-well-with-others, so please don't "put words in my mouth". :-)
But for the record - Budgie, KDE and XFCE are all fine in my book. I actually use one of them on my laptop. ;-)
Originally posted by vito View PostAll Canonical projects require the contributors to sign their controversial license agreement (CLA) which effectively makes it impossible for other companies to contribute without giving up their rights. So you can sugar coat it any way you want, but at the end of the day lets call it what it actually is - proprietary.
Originally posted by vito View PostBy that logic, we should all be using Windows because it sees the most developer activity and third party support. :-)
Originally posted by vito View PostWhat I am doing is trying to explain that the animosity against Ubuntu and Canonical is often not due to zealosy or fanboyism (as you put it in the comment regarding TemplarGR's comment). Instead, there are several very serious reasons why some of us are genuinely concerned with what is happening.
Originally posted by vito View PostCanonical is following exactly the same tactic that Microsoft used back in the day to take established standards and change it enough to make it incompatible with other systems - so called "Embrace, extend and extinguish": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish
In the words of Morpheus: "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."[/QUOTE]
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Originally posted by jacob View PostOr it could be because whether "novice" or not, they have better and more interesting things to do than spending time configuring a distro or learning how to configure a distro. They - rightly - expect their computer to Just Work
Just want to point out, this is the exactly same reasoning that people use to explain why they use a MacOS or Windows instead of Linux. You are free to pick your poison of course.
But seriously, I help manage large number of Linux workstations and servers at work and I can tell you with confidence that the biggest problem people run into on Linux by far is the nvidia driver. Second biggest is installing 3rd party software.
Originally posted by jacob View PostUnity was and still is IMHO the best Linux desktop UI available
Originally posted by jacob View PostProjects like Mutiny and UBPorts are trying to keep the concept alive, so presumably they are evil too, no to mention those who prefer Budgie, KDE or XFCE?
But for the record - Budgie, KDE and XFCE are all fine in my book. I actually use one of them on my laptop. ;-)
Originally posted by jacob View PostAt any rate, none of these projects that you mention are proprietary, so your belief is not only inaccurate but also completely mistaken.
See here for more info: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/29160.html
Originally posted by jacob View PostSnap sees vastly more developer activity and third party support than Flatpak and beats it hands down in terms of number of available packages, so there.
Originally posted by jacob View PostI think that some fragmentation is a good thing.
Seriously though, difference between distros is okay, as long as it is interoperable. And that is the point I was trying to get across in my earlier comment.
Originally posted by jacob View PostUse whatever you like and whatever works best for you. More power to you, but I wouldn't expect to find many people interested in you lecturing them about what they "can" use.
I agree that people are free to use whatever they want to use. And I wasn't trying to lecture you on what you can and cannot use - its a free country!
What I am doing is trying to explain that the animosity against Ubuntu and Canonical is often not due to zealosy or fanboyism (as you put it in the comment regarding TemplarGR's comment). Instead, there are several very serious reasons why some of us are genuinely concerned with what is happening.
Canonical is following exactly the same tactic that Microsoft used back in the day to take established standards and change it enough to make it incompatible with other systems - so called "Embrace, extend and extinguish": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish
In the words of Morpheus: "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."
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Originally posted by vito View PostIn 99% of cases, the reason why someone might be using Ubuntu is because they are novice and could not figure out how to install the NVidia driver in another distro they tried and Canonical has a deal to include their binary blob drivers in the proprietary repo.
Originally posted by vito View PostThe huge problem with Ubuntu (Canonical in general) is that they always try to do their own proprietary version of everything that conflicts with what the community is doing, in an attempt to lock in the users so they have no choice but use their product. For example, Canonical pushed Mir instead of Wayland, Unity instead of Gnome, Snap instead of Flatpack, etc.
Originally posted by vito View PostAnd therein lies the problem: because of this, there are software packages coming out that are hardcoded for Ubuntu and their propriatery crap, which makes it impossible to run on anything but Ubuntu. Take a look at NVidia's embedded SDK or AMD's ROCm for example.
Originally posted by vito View PostThis can make it a real pain if you already have an infrastructure that does not use it (for example). The end result is that Ubuntu (really Canonical) is fragmenting the Linux community.
Oh, incidentally, AFAIK Oracle is only supported on OEL or RHEL and SAP only works on SLES. Many tools in Kali won't work on other distros either. Meanwhile, Arch doesn't use RPM or DEB. Raspbian has its own kernel and firmware update tools, different from the upstream Debian. Gentoo and Devuan are not using systemd, which is not "what the community is doing". So these are all guilty of Fragmenting The Linux Communityt too, are they?
Originally posted by vito View PostBottom line: Ubuntu (Canonical) needs to become better citizen or die. Until then, I will keep telling people that they can use any distro they want, as long as it is not Ubuntu.
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