PulseAudio 10.0 Officially Released

[L_A_G]

...

I love how you start demanding that I need to compile comprehensive statistics to counter your personal anecdotes. Maybe mr. old fart thinks a wee bit too much of himself?

Needless to say I've paid close attention to what people have written on various mailing lists, forums and comments to news articles on the subject so my sample size is way bigger than what you claim to be a superior size sampling. Even Lennart himself has long since admitted that PulseAudio didn't really work all that well when distros like Ubuntu started adopting it. I'm pretty sure Lennart himself is a greater authority on how well PulseAudio worked in the early days if you really want to play the whole "my authority trumps your authority" game.

Care to share that 'experience' with large scale software development?

I specifically wrote "knowledge or experience" in that sentence so it seems like somebody attempting a rather weak straw man fallacy over here... Seriously thou, it really doesn't take an expert or even an academic to understand that unnecessary complexity and code bloat caused by the sort of feature creep SystemD has suffered from is a pathway to disaster.

[TheBlackCat]

Needless to say I've paid close attention to what people have written on various mailing lists, forums and comments to news articles on the subject so my sample size is way bigger than what you claim to be a superior size sampling.

If you read any mailing list or forum, most of the people there are going to be people who are having a problem and need help. People whose software is working as they want don't tend to show up to mailing lists talking about how great it is.

Even Lennart himself has long since admitted that PulseAudio didn't really work all that well when distros like Ubuntu started adopting it.

That is because Ubuntu rushed to adopt it before Fedora, releasing an unfinished, buggy version. The fact that you weren't aware of this basic, well-known fact shows you really haven't done the research you claim to have done.

[ldo17]

anyone with any knowledge or experience of large scale software development will be able to tell that [PulseAudio is] headed for disaster if it follows [its] present course.

Just do a git-bisect when that happens, and revert to the last known-good commit.

[gilboa]

I love how you start demanding that I need to compile comprehensive statistics to counter your personal anecdotes. Maybe mr. old fart thinks a wee bit too much of himself?

Needless to say I've paid close attention to what people have written on various mailing lists, forums and comments to news articles on the subject so my sample size is way bigger than what you claim to be a superior size sampling. Even Lennart himself has long since admitted that PulseAudio didn't really work all that well when distros like Ubuntu started adopting it. I'm pretty sure Lennart himself is a greater authority on how well PulseAudio worked in the early days if you really want to play the whole "my authority trumps your authority" game.


I specifically wrote "knowledge or experience" in that sentence so it seems like somebody attempting a rather weak straw man fallacy over here... Seriously thou, it really doesn't take an expert or even an academic to understand that unnecessary complexity and code bloat caused by the sort of feature creep SystemD has suffered from is a pathway to disaster.

You do understand that no amount of hand waving ('doesn't take an expert or even an academic to understand that unnecessary complexity blah blah blah') and false statistics ('I've paid close attention to what people have written on various mailing lists blah blah') will change that fact that you have zero ability to substantiate your claim, sending you down the good-old-childish-insults path ('old fart blah blah').

... and BTW, unlike you (so it seems) I do have some experience in 'large scale system development' no small than PA or systemd with just-as-many-developers, and your last claim is simply unsubstantiated bollocks.

- Gilboa

[L_A_G]

If you read any mailing list or forum, most of the people there are going to be people who are having a problem and need help. People whose software is working as they want don't tend to show up to mailing lists talking about how great it is.

Maybe not, but they do tend to defend it if they think it's being unjustly bashed. However the consensus you used to see back when Lennart was still running the project was that it was buggy as all hell and you got that from people who had problems with it and those who didn't.

That is because Ubuntu rushed to adopt it before Fedora, releasing an unfinished, buggy version. The fact that you weren't aware of this basic, well-known fact shows you really haven't done the research you claim to have done.

The thing about talk about it not being ready for primetime was something that only really surfaced after the fact. It's essentially just hindsight pushed by apologists of the project rather than any insight that was actually available at the time.

You do understand that no amount of hand waving ('doesn't take an expert or even an academic to understand that unnecessary complexity blah blah blah') and false statistics ('I've paid close attention to what people have written on various mailing lists blah blah') will change that fact that you have zero ability to substantiate your claim, sending you down the good-old-childish-insults path ('old fart blah blah').

All you could come up with to support your view were personal anecdotes so it's not like you're presenting a case any better than mine. If I have zero ability to substantiate my claim then you have even less to substantiate yours. The fact that you don't seem to be able to or want to understand how little value personal anecdotes carry is just painful to watch.

... and BTW, unlike you (so it seems) I do have some experience in 'large scale system development' no small than PA or systemd with just-as-many-developers, and your last claim is simply unsubstantiated bollocks.

You do realize this is the internet? I have no idea who you are, so you could just as well be a 12-year-old writing this out of his mothers' basement. I really have no way of knowing if you're telling the truth or if you really are just some 12-year-old.

Because this "call to authority" type argumentation really doesn't work on the internet unless you're in an environment where you use your real name and have verified accounts.

[gilboa]

All you could come up with to support your view were personal anecdotes so it's not like you're presenting a case any better than mine. If I have zero ability to substantiate my claim then you have even less to substantiate yours. The fact that you don't seem to be able to or want to understand how little value personal anecdotes carry is just painful to watch.

I never claimed that my use case represent anything outside my 100+ large Fedora network.
You, on the other hand, repeatedly claimed that you represents some / most / all of the PA and systemd users (you went as far as claiming that *I* do/will feel the same as you)

So, either you have statistics to back your claim (that your view point represent a large portion of PA and systemd users) or limit your argument to your own personal anecdotes, that at least as far as I can understand, is *not* based on hundreds of machines.

You do realize this is the internet? I have no idea who you are, so you could just as well be a 12-year-old writing this out of his mothers' basement. I really have no way of knowing if you're telling the truth or if you really are just some 12-year-old.
Because this "call to authority" type argumentation really doesn't work on the internet unless you're in an environment where you use your real name and have verified accounts.

I'm irrelevant as I'm not the one making the unfounded claims.
Reminder: You made an absolute claim about the imminent failure of system due to being 'large scale development'. When asked about your experience in the field, you gave more-or-less-nada.
Either you are an authority in the field and know what you are talking about, or you're not - its that simple.

- Gilboa

[L_A_G]

I never claimed that my use case represent anything outside my 100+ large Fedora network.

Yet you still acted as if your personal anecdotes somehow trumped my personal observations. If I need detailed statistics to make the claim that PulseAudio wasn't very good when distros started adopting it and Lennart was still running the project, then so do you to make the exact opposite claim.

Actually come to think of it, I pointed towards Lennart himself saying essentially the same thing I was saying and you didn't even try to deny this, so I guess I've now proven my point and the onus is on you to provide statistics for your claim, not me.

You, on the other hand, repeatedly claimed that you represents some / most / all of the PA and systemd users (you went as far as claiming that *I* do/will feel the same as you)

I once quipped that if SystemD continues on it's present course of unnecessary complexity and reckless "If it doesn't break anything, it's not a bug" attitude towards bugs you'll probably be thinking of it the same way as Windows users think about Windows ME. The fact that you keep harping on about this one quip as if it's something I've been repeating over and over again really suggests you've ether got a very fragile ego or are new to any tongue-in-cheek type quips.

So, either you have statistics to back your claim (that your view point represent a large portion of PA and systemd users) or limit your argument to your own personal anecdotes, that at least as far as I can understand, is *not* based on hundreds of machines.

Right back at you. I pointed towards Lennart, who's probably the ultimate authority on the state of the project at the time, admitting what I've been saying so far. If anyone needs to bring additional evidence to the table then it's you, not me.

I'm irrelevant as I'm not the one making the unfounded claims.

Yes you are when you claimed to have experience with projects the size and complexity of SystemD and used that claimed experience to refute my point. Besides, you don't have to have a massive amount of large scale software development to understand how dangerous the combination of high complexity and a negligent attitude towards debugging can be any more than you need to be physicist to know that if you knock something off a table it's going to fall to the floor, not float to the ceiling.

Either you are an authority in the field and know what you are talking about, or you're not - its that simple.

I never claimed to be an authority, you did. I merely pointed towards basic software development principles anyone with an academic type background will know about. You don't need to be a research physicist to understand the broad strokes of how gravity works any more than you need to be some kind of expert to understand the dangers of where SystemD is headed with it's current development methodology.

[gilboa]

Old fart with fragile ego (your words, not mine). Two strike outs in less than 24 hours. Impressive.
Ping me when you are capable of having a civil discussion without resorting to childish personal insults.

- Gilboa

[TheBlackCat]

Maybe not, but they do tend to defend it if they think it's being unjustly bashed. However the consensus you used to see back when Lennart was still running the project was that it was buggy as all hell and you got that from people who had problems with it and those who didn't.

See, this is your problem. You presume to speak for everyone when you really only speak for yourself. I didn't see any such "consensus" at the time.

The thing about talk about it not being ready for primetime was something that only really surfaced after the fact. It's essentially just hindsight pushed by apologists of the project rather than any insight that was actually available at the time.

Utterly false. Ubuntu rushed it. That is what they did with software at the time, not just PA. You don't see that much anyone because a lot of major projects changed their release schedule to discourage Ubuntu from doing it anymore

[Azrael5]

when this upgrade will be available from the repositories? thanks.