Fedora Proposal To Use Cinnamon Desktop By Default

[Delgarde]

If you were right, surely far less people would be complaining and flocking to other desktops?
Change for changes sake is a bad thing.

Why do you insist that Shell is "change for change sake"? We get that you don't like it, but why can't you grasp the fact that not everyone agrees with you. Some of us regard Shell as a massive improvement over it's predecessor, and over the other desktops.

[kickback999]

Show a clear analysis and methodology to support your claim that gnome users who support Gnome Shell are minority.

Fair point, the majority of gnome users DO support gnome shell. You are right and I stand corrected.
The rest have already switched.. and you cannot deny gnome has hemorrhaged users since the release of gnome3.

Why do you insist that Shell is "change for change sake"? We get that you don't like it, but why can't you grasp the fact that not everyone agrees with you. Some of us regard Shell as a massive improvement over it's predecessor, and over the other desktops.

I dont think im the only one hahaha!
GS supporters all seem act as if each person who complains individually is the only person complaining. You also have the sheer arrogance to assume that we haven't given it a chance. Why do you think this whole issue has created such a stink? It's not just me.
I used it for about 3 months. If it was any better than gnome 2 surely I would still be using it. I wouldn't be using MATE or cinnamon or some other environment.
But yea, the operative word in your post was some. Not majority, not all..

Your combatant responses show a sheer arrogance and disregard for the preferences of anyone who doesn't like gnome 3. I suggested a reasonable compromise, you dismissed it out of hand and with no reasoning.

If your criticisms of me are valid, then you have also stooped to the same level.

[thalaric]

You talk about the mode change stuff, but that's only relevant when starting a new app, and in practice I barely notice it's existence - I'm using the keyboard for everything, so if the screen flickers a little as it auto-completes the program I'm running, I typically don't see it.

And this is what I don't understand with you calling it a mobile interface. I use both Shell and Android day to day, and they have *nothing* in common. Android *is* all the things you're talking about - full-screen applications, slow switching between them, touch oriented. Shell isn't.

Ok, I get it, interfacing with your keyboard is one way to avoid interacting with GS. Though, if you are using your keyboard for everything then all desktop environments are equal as long as they have key bindings. . Surprisingly, many people only use the keyboard for typing. Try using a mouse for everything (or touch) and you will see it's exactly like Android with some multi-window support bolted on.

[Guest]

Show a clear analysis and methodology to support your claim that gnome users who support Gnome Shell are minority.

It was done many times already. Gnome shell devs and fanboys are the greatest example of an iphone syndrome:

http://www.strandreports.com/sw4031.asp

You should be cured.

[dee.]

Fedora could do worse. Cinnamon is the best desktop I've ever tried, period.

Caveats: I've only tried Gnome2, Unity, MATE, LXDE and Cinnamon. But out of those I like Cinnamon the best.

[kigurai]

It was done many times already.

Then providing us with one example when asked shouldn't be hard, right?

[Guest]

Then providing us with one example when asked shouldn't be hard, right?

It would be waste of my time. You can prove gnomes are wrong, but while they don't care then why should I bother? As you probably noticed, there's much more criticism after gnome shell appeared. Furthermore, Fedora is probably an only major distribution which ships gnome shell, so this should be enough to realize most of the users just hate shell.

[kigurai]

It would be waste of my time.

If you have so precious little time, may I suggest not spending it hating on a desktop environment you don't use?
Seems like bad use of time.
Also, making harsh statements and then back down when someone calls you out on it is not really what I consider nice either.
But this is Phoronix, and we are speaking about GNOME so who cares about manners or facts, right?

As you probably noticed, there's much more criticism after gnome shell appeared.

I have noticed that a lot of Linux users seem to like to whine about new stuff.
I have seen it with NetworkManager and with PulseAudio, and a bunch of other stuff. So you might see why I don't think "there are a lot of criticism after project X appeared" is a good measure of whether project X is actually going to be succesful.

[Guest]

If you have so precious little time, may I suggest not spending it hating on a desktop environment you don't use?
Seems like bad use of time.
Also, making harsh statements and then back down when someone calls you out on it is not really what I consider nice either.
But this is Phoronix, and we are speaking about GNOME so who cares about manners or facts, right?

Criticizing isn't equal to hating. I didn't run away, because I backed up my point. It seems it is you who don't care about the facts. It's a fact major distributions don't ship with gnome shell as a default, it's a fact gnome doesn't care about criticism and it's a fact gnome shell is hated by many users - polls show users prefer KDE, XFCE, Unity and Cinnamon over shell:

http://pollator.com/polls/which-linux-desktop-environment-are-you-using

http://forums.opensuse.org/english/other-forums/community-fun/surveys-polls/477759-desktop-environment-do-you-use-opensuse-you-can-click-more-then-one-if-applicable.html

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=100787&start=360

http://www.muktware.com/articles/3518/kde-voted-most-popular-desktop-environment

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1955

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85535&p=39

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 - even here - in the gnome shell bastion, KDE is nearly as popular as gnome3/shell

I have noticed that a lot of Linux users seem to like to whine about new stuff.
I have seen it with NetworkManager and with PulseAudio, and a bunch of other stuff. So you might see why I don't think "there are a lot of criticism after project X appeared" is a good measure of whether project X is actually going to be succesful.

Apples to oranges comparison. NetworkManager and PulseAudio were criticized, because of bugs.

[kigurai]

Criticizing isn't equal to hating. I didn't run away, because I backed up my point. It seems it is you who don't care about the facts. It's a fact major distributions don't ship with gnome shell as a default, it's a fact gnome doesn't care about criticism and it's a fact gnome shell is hated by many users - polls show users prefer KDE, XFCE, Unity and Cinnamon over shell:

http://pollator.com/polls/which-linux-desktop-environment-are-you-using

http://forums.opensuse.org/english/other-forums/community-fun/surveys-polls/477759-desktop-environment-do-you-use-opensuse-you-can-click-more-then-one-if-applicable.html

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=100787&start=360

http://www.muktware.com/articles/3518/kde-voted-most-popular-desktop-environment

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1955

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85535&p=39

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463 - even here - in the gnome shell bastion, KDE is nearly as popular as gnome3/shell

And I have seen exactly 0 of these polls. I doubt the rest of the people at my department that happily use GNOME3 have seen them either.
Most users are happily unaware of the pletora of different forums that exist.
The same poll can get vastly different results depending on where and who you ask. Your links is actually a good example of that.
For example, check the poll numbers for Cinnamon in your Arch link compared to the Mint link. Given these, is Cinnamon really really popular, or irrelevant?

And since when is Fedora not a major distribution?

As for GNOME devs listening to critics. I see plenty of stuff that has changed due to user feedback (recent GNOME classic is one example).
Ignoring critique that goes against the overall vision of the project is a good thing. You just happen to believe it is a bad thing since you don't like the vision.
I for one think it is great that there is some kind of vision.

Apples to oranges comparison. NetworkManager and PulseAudio were criticized, because of bugs.

No, they were criticized a lot for fixing "problems that did not exist", and for "regressions/missing features".
I think the similarity is quite striking.
Note that I agree that there was some features that went missing when you upgraded from GNOME 2.32 to 3.0. But they have crept back and current version is actually just awesome.