AMD Radeon Linux Gaming Performance At Parity Between KDE Plasma 6.0 X11 vs. Wayland

[Weasel]

What do you require? An official statement by the Xorg foundation?

Obviously.

Someone leaving it doesn't make it official since someone else picked it up (the maintenance).

[Weasel]

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayla...e_requests/264

Weasel need to stop making things up here. Merge request 264 shows that there is no code in Wayland blocking this feature. But there is no code/protocol merged at this stage to enable this feature without using the nested/proxy compositor route.

The nested/proxy wayland compositor solution to this problem as the zone property creating grouping of windows. The proposed protocol keeps this zoned stuff. X11 protocol without nesting you don't have enforced zoned either.

The feature has turned into quite debate. There are lot of different parties with different requirements so that everything works well for the user with Window placement.


Weasel sometimes what appears to be easy problem happens to be a insanely hard one. The limitations of the X11/Windows method of windows placement do cause users problems. This is why the problem comes so hard all the experiences with how X11, Windows and MacOS run into trouble wayland is still a clean slate in multi application window positioning so there is still the chance to design something better.

It's not a difficult problem since X11 fixed it since the 80s.

Wayland needs to get with the program and stop catering to paranoid shitheads.

[t1r0nama]

I agree that X is peace of shit, but so is wayland. We need something modern and better then both of them, that is actually thought through and does not rely on other software to do the job that it has to do to replace X.

Today i am using X, because it actually works and does not complain like: "this is <whatever software is broken on wayland> s developers fault"

[Weasel]

All you need to do is search Phoronix for it.

There may still be a lot of movement on the repository, but most of that is for XWayland, not the retired X server. Having no dedicated maintainer its a walking zombie. There is no comparison to the Linux kernel here.

Peter Hutterer picked it up.

[ezst036]

Peter Hutterer picked it up.

I can find no evidence of this. Hutterer appears to be maintainer of libinput, which is a part of the X.org suite but not x11/xServer itself. Hutterer also appears to have a large role with XWayland, but again, that's not the main body of the old XServer.

Then there is this.

https://twitter.com/who_t/status/1358633376513576963

Xorg (the X server running on hardware) has no maintainer, no-one committed to make releases, no-one willing to invest in it.

Doesn't sound like it was written by a current maintainer, nor someone with budding interest in signing up for the job. If you can show where this is listed, I would appreciate that.

[treba]

Playing Windows games in a Wine virtual desktop...?

Do you have any benchmarks suggesting that input latency is a problem in that scenario? I'm especially interested as this is a use-case where Wine-Wayland will likely be able to outperform the X11 backend on the rendering front (by putting the client content into a subsurface).

[mSparks]

I can find no evidence of this.

xservers repository is about as active as any other mature piece of software that works and is in widespread use.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver

Also, the whole point of OSS is also that its not dependant on any one entity or contributor, if something is broken - fixing it yourself and sending upstream the changes isn't just possible it is actively encouraged.

Declaring an OSS project depreciated is about as meaningful as declaring the sun depreciated because you can only work the night shift - interesting talking point, but meaningless to anyone else.

[oiaohm]

It's not a difficult problem since X11 fixed it since the 80s.

Wayland needs to get with the program and stop catering to paranoid shitheads.

So X11 tiling window managers have worked perfectly Weasel??

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayla...e_requests/264

• No global coordinate system
• Multi-process GUI applications can easily cooperate in window placement across their processes
• No limitations on the window layouts applications can come up with (Clients can easily construct their initial window layout and do not require the compositor to make assumptions about it)
• Relatively easy to port existing applications to the new protocol from Windows/macOS/X11
• Context for compositors: They now know the explicit layout of windows a client has created, and that these windows belong together, so can decide to e.g. allow the user to move them as a cluster between virtual zones, or represent them as one in a tiling WM and potentially only expand them if selected.
• Clients have a better idea about the usable space available to them and might make much better placement decisions than on X11
• Still, compositors have the final say about window placement and application hints are only strong recommendations

Would have paid to read 264 before commenting.

Weasel one of the problems with X11 solution is that applications can place windows where they should not be placing them and have no clean way to find out where they should not be placing their windows.

Context for compositors: They now know the explicit layout of windows a client has created, and that these windows belong together, so can decide to e.g. allow the user to move them as a cluster between virtual zones, or represent them as one in a tiling WM and potentially only expand them if selected

This is a limitation of the Windows and X11 implementations. When you have multi applications showing windows how does the windows manager know if they are a same application with multi programs or multi individual programs. Current X11 and Windows really provides no clean way to know this.

Weasel like it or not X11 did not get it right in the 1980s there are limitations to the allow absolute positioning method that causes problems. The arguments come about with people having different ideas how to fix these limitations.

Remember 264 has "To Be Developed" approval

Wayland the blockages on windows placement most of them are not security. The core of the block is in fact old X11 Windows manager developers of different types who want particular problems addressed that they never had good work around for under X11.

Weasel its not the "paranoid shitheads" at the core of the blockage you would have found that out if you had fully read 264.

[t.s.]

Thanks for the benchmarks, but I doubt this can shut the blissful ignorants who keep parroting bullshit, since they never look at facts to begin with.

Wayland's issue isn't performance directly, it's lack of features (by design). I say directly, because some things like childing yourself to another window (for Wine's virtual desktops for instance) require more overhead due to lacking features that X11 has natively, so the performance will be lower (although it's not perf directly but input lag and latency). This is due to its stupid design and stubborn devs, and yes, it's the protocol's fault.

Anyway they should stop using the Linux kernel since that's also tech from the 90s. Who cares it got a lot of updates since then, right?

Lately, I played diablo 2 resurrected. On wayland, when my screen locked, then I cannot access the game again. But it's no problem in X11. So yeah, there's still problem with plasma and wayland.

Edit: And it's smoother on X11 than on wayland. It's like this too when I play playing dota 2 reborn sometime ago.

[t.s.]

I know it can seem threatening for a protocol to be 15 years in the making before being extended enough for all desktop use cases. But this happens only because it does things right and not fall into the same shit category as windows and macos.

Not the same shit category as windows that is the most efficient protocol for RDP and the one that when there's driver problem, not bring down all desktop? Wow.