KDE On The Importance Of Wayland Explicit Sync

[smitty3268]

It most certainly would have required much less. They put in quite a lot of work for explicit sync across the stack.

I stand corrected.

[mdedetrich]

It most certainly would have required much less. They put in quite a lot of work for explicit sync across the stack.

This is false, an NVidia engineer stated precisely why it was difficult for their driver to implement implicit sync in the way being asked and given that, in that same post they also openly asked the community how to implement such in thing.

You suggested this same solution you mentioned in this thread to them, they responded to you saying why its not possible and from then on you (and no one else from that matter) never responded to them, so from their side they were being told that a solution was "easy", they said why its not with a technical explanation why and no one actually proposed how they could do it easily.

Also to be blunt, given that X11 exists early adoption of Wayland is way below priority versus getting things done properly, and its ironic that on one hand people are complaining that NVidia is lazy in open source and then on the other hand people are now complaining that NVidia took the proper but painful route which also required their own engineers to spend time getting it through. Its a catch 22 where NVidia is always the bad guy.

Make up your god damn mind.

[wertigon]

Also to be blunt, given that X11 exists early adoption of Wayland is way below priority versus getting things done properly

Also to be blunt, given that ICE cars exists early adoption of electric cars is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Toyota)

Also to be blunt, given that dumbphones exists early adoption of smartphones is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Nokia)

Also to be blunt, given that DVDs exists early adoption of streaming is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Blockbuster)

Also to be blunt, given that camera film exists early adoption of digital cameras is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Kodak)

Also to be blunt, how did that work out for these market leaders?

[mdedetrich]

Also to be blunt, given that ICE cars exists early adoption of electric cars is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Toyota)

Also to be blunt, given that dumbphones exists early adoption of smartphones is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Nokia)

Also to be blunt, given that DVDs exists early adoption of streaming is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Blockbuster)

Also to be blunt, given that camera film exists early adoption of digital cameras is way below priority versus getting things done properly (said Kodak)

Also to be blunt, how did that work out for these market leaders?

Your doing an excellent job of creating bulls**t analogies and early Wayland adoption has close to zero actual dent on NVidia's market performance/demographics. Hate to break it to you but there is no money in Linux desktop.

[wertigon]

Your doing an excellent job of creating bulls**t analogies and early Wayland adoption has close to zero actual dent on NVidia's market performance/demographics. Hate to break it to you but there is no money in Linux desktop.

There were hardly any money in smartphones, or LCD screens or heck, internet streaming services either, in the beginning. Netflix started as a DVD rental company and Tesla almost went bankrupt in creating model 3.

But, sure. Bet the farm on the status quo remaining, the more arrogant the company the harder the fall

That said the fall will not come tomorrow. Give it a few decades.

[oiaohm]

This is false, an NVidia engineer stated precisely why it was difficult for their driver to implement implicit sync in the way being asked and given that, in that same post they also openly asked the community how to implement such in thing.

Example is given in fact. Nouveau does support implicit sync with Nvidia hardware. The open source world has been offering to-do it themselves if they are allowed to.

You suggested this same solution you mentioned in this thread to them, they responded to you saying why its not possible and from then on you (and no one else from that matter) never responded to them, so from their side they were being told that a solution was "easy", they said why its not with a technical explanation why and no one actually proposed how they could do it easily.

Just like windows the Linux kernel has stack of shared code to implicit implicit sync on top of a explicit sync driver/hardware this is code that is MIT licensed and shared with BSD.

Notice here saying Nvidia was not give how is absolute bogus garbage. Nvidia does not like the performance cost. AMD and Intel do pay the performance cost to have implicit sync.

Also to be blunt, given that X11 exists early adoption of Wayland is way below priority versus getting things done properly, and its ironic that on one hand people are complaining that NVidia is lazy in open source and then on the other hand people are now complaining that NVidia took the proper but painful route which also required their own engineers to spend time getting it through. Its a catch 22 where NVidia is always the bad guy.

The reality here is Nvidia over and over again takes performance over doing things properly for system stability.

Implicit sync advantage is that you can have a third party to application like kernel controlling when particular operations happen. For resource allocate and free/release to make sure that one program does not rug pull another program this is important to system stability.

The problem here is the safety of implicit sync does come with a performance cost. To be real using a protected mode OS the way we do today does technically come with a performance cost as well.

You have to remember some of the reason why Valve was willing to fund Zink development is the fact that Nvidia Opengl implicit sync does not in fact work right resulting in particular games not working right.

In some ways Nvidia is tunneled visioned and that the problem. To sell GPU cards you want to have bigger number in benchmarks. You don't see GPU reviewers running the Opengl/Vulkan/Direct X conformance suites to make sure vendors are not cheating their implementations. Yes giving up system stability to make benchmarks go faster is way to sell more cards. But there are markets like Linux world that more server based where stability is more highly valued.

Yes eglstreams is classic example where yes it design in theory would be faster. Yes would require everything altered to support it but when Nvidia developer was being ask by lead KDE developer to prove stability there was no way to-do it. You look at eglstreams ignoring/not including protections between OS processes memory allocations yes this improves performance but not having these protections there is no way you can have stability.

mdedetrich there is a reasons why Nvidia to the open source world of LInux is almost always the bad guy. Number 1 of these Linux world values stability over performance. You can see this with the history of how long the Linux kernel held on to the big kernel lock and other things but then Nvidia values performance over stability, This equals end up with disputes.

Yes part of being sure of stability is also open source drivers so the code can be validated that it not doing something stupid to cause stability problems.

The wish for stability in the Linux world puts parties like Nvidia into conflict.