GNOME's Mutter Lands DRM Sync Obj v1 Support For Explicit Sync On Wayland

[oiaohm]

X servers could be used interchangeably. Wayland compositors are glued to the respective DEs/WMs and normally cannot be used anywhere else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_display_servers#X11

Absolutely not true that X servers can be used interchangeably. Anyone who ever played with WiredX and http://nano-x.org/ and many other not x.org X11 servers based found out very quickly that X11 servers cannot be used interchangeably. Interchangeability with X11 server was only happening if the X11 at first was a fork of Xfree86 then X.org as in being based off the reference version of X11 server. Also as you move into these not X.org X11 servers you start finding no graphical driver or very limited graphical driver support support..

Do note that WiredX and nano-x both don't support X11 compositors at all.

Wayland features reach Wayland compositors at different times and there's no guarantee they will even reach yours. If you're not a KDE/Gnome user, your Wayland experience could be woefully incomplete.

I will proceed and rewrite this sentences to match the reality of the X11 server world.

X11 features reach X11 server implementations at different times and there's no guarantee they will even reach yours. If you're not a X11 reference implementation user, your X11 experience could be woefully incomplete.

That line is the reality. Yes Xfree86 was the reference X11 implementation for a time then was replaced by X.org X11 implementation. Yes the different forks off x.org server do have the habit of feature lagging you find this with Xquartz on Macos and Xenocara done by Openbsd by the way.

Basically avis you have way oversold X11. The reality that 99% of Linux distributions used x.org X11 server means most people are not aware of the X11 server problems. I am very aware of the X11 server problems because for a particular use case in the past I had to use tinycore Linux that had what was called microwindows that became nano-x very quickly I had X11 compatibility issues.. Then I had to use a sun workstation and run into X11 server issues again due to quirks in the sun x11 server implementation. I could go on with 40+ pages of every time I had some non x.org/xfree86 X11 server and the different in X11 implementation proceeded to kick me in the teeth.

Now all your counter points avis apply to X11 protocol.
A horrible amount of work required to implement X11 features
Yes this one of the reason why anything not x.org X11 server today or Xfree86 in the past mostly horrible.
A horrible amount of duplication of work
Yes this one of the reason is why anything not x.org X11 server today or Xfree86 in the past mostly horrible.
Minor X11 compositors being unable to implement X11 features due to financial constraints/lack of developers
Notice I just swapped out Wayland for X11 here. Yes this is also true statement minor X11 compositors like the one in xfce is known to be feature lacking in their completeness of the X11 composite protocol compared to Gnome and KDE and this was true before Wayland existed and still true now of course. Of course this X11 compositor problem effects uses of x.org X11 server.
Users of X11 getting radically different experience depending on what X11 server they are using
Again take out Wayland put in X11 get another true statement.
Multiple DEs/WMs struggling to support it
With security updates and other things Multiple DEs/WMs were having this problem before Wayland.

Avis you need to stop presuming X11 was in a very good position when Wayland started. The true fact of the matter X11 in 2008 when Wayland started as a ecosystem was not really in a good place.

Avis you say others don't care about those issues. The reality those issues have been around for a long time. Problem here is the issues you said I first saw in 1996 but applying to X11. Due to these problems being really old means we have never worked out how to solve them.

X11 solutions fairly most worked as long as you only used the X11 reference implementation. Now the wayland case we don't have most parties basing their work on the reference implementation Weston.

Gnome and KDE not basing off Weston is they already had a prexisting item being the X11 compositors they had was 90%+ there to being a complete Wayland compositor. Yes Gnome and KDE could be suffering from sunk cost fallacy leading to failure to cooperate.

[MrCooper]

after 12-13 years the very basic functionality of modern graphics infrastructure got merged.

Explicit sync isn't basic functionality — the core Wayland protocol works fine with implicit sync.

The main benefit of explicit sync at this point is that users of the nvidia driver can finally use Wayland without glaring visual glitches. Everyone else is unlikely to notice any difference.

I hope I won't have to wait long for explicit sync for present/xwayland that nvidia is working on in open source stuff.

The plan is to land it for the upcoming Xwayland 24.1.0 release.

I sure hope support for explicit sync will be backported to current versions of kwin and mutter - meaning gnome 46 and kde 6.0 subsequential releases, as well as to xwayland.

Since the mutter support is merged, it'll be in the 46.1 release. (Mutter branches for the next major release only after the .1 point release)

[avis]

He is so obsessed with this because he have gotten this whole dumb idea in his brain that Wayland somehow dictates that things must be done this way and he doesn't realise that it's the devs themselves that decided to make their own compositors and that they where not forced to do it.

And when I wrote basically the above, he simply copy pasted "why are there 15+ different implementations if Wayland doesn't force this" again... I simply believes that he needs to hate on Wayland, or perhaps he needs to hate on something, to get up in the morning.

I've never said or implied that.

I've never hated on Wayland.

I want to use Wayland and I cannot because in your imaginary world "it just works", in reality Wayland is more or less usable only under Gnome and KDE because all other implementations are horribly incomplete and there's no guarantee they will ever be complete.

Your entire comment is a load of lies, insults and complete lack of knowledge. But Michael will ban me because it's totally fine to insult me, especially when multiple forum members do it day in and out. God, you're despicable but whatever. Being anonymous is great isn't it? Shitting on others non-stop with zero repercussions.

[oiaohm]

I want to use Wayland and I cannot because in your imaginary world "it just works", in reality Wayland is more or less usable only under Gnome and KDE because all other implementations are horribly incomplete and there's no guarantee they will ever be complete.

There is problem.

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/18A4-1E10-8A94-3DDA

avis you need to get your statement correct. Sway/wlroots based compositors in Wayland protocol implementation are ahead of gnome for wayland support in many places.

Lot of using using sway and hyperland find wayland very usable.

Avis you arguments over and over again are not based on past or current facts. Current facts you would not be holding gnome as somewhere near workable for Wayland.

Avis your posts are being full of lies about X11 history and Wayland current. What else is people like F.Ultra when your posts are full over lies other and what F.Ultra just wrote.

We do need to take the rose color glass off when looking at X11 and see it for what it has been. We also do need to be saying what is the current realities.

The Wayland compositor with the most Wayland protocol implemented that weston.
Its close second/third between KDE/Sway(most wlroots)
Fourth is COSMIC Shell the rust one.
fifth Mir.
There is still another 3 that at not wlroots based before we even get to where Gnome is avis.

For the level of paid development Gnome is massively tail of hunt. KDE and Sway/wlroots both said screw Nvidia. KDE forces Nvidia to provide their own developer or they would not be supporting Nvidia. So KDE was not harmed by the eglstreams mess as much. Sway/wlroots just black listed Nvidia so they were not as effected by eglstreams as much.
COSMIC Shell also went gbm or nothing so avoided the eglstreams mess.
Mir they scrapped there eglstreams mess stuff before 2020 yes 2018 mostly because Mir was targeting mobile usage/embedded usage where eglstreams had totally failed to take off so eglstreams had come pointless to their target market.

Avis like it or not there is a reason why Gnome is majorly screwed up. Gnome split their development team between eglstreams and GBM/dmabuf and they are still paying the price on implementation backlog. Gnome has a lot of work ahead of themselves to catch up with the others.

Avis you don't want to hear that the Nvidia eglstreams made a mess. Due to not wanting to hear this you end up acting like gnome for Wayland is in a OK place when in reality gnome is not in ok place as it still recovering from the Nvidia eglstreams caused development harm.

[F.Ultra]

I've never said or implied that.

Well you clearly implied it when you wrote this: ""Wayland doesn't dictate" yet we have 15+ implementations. Yet another excellent whataboutism.". And you have in other threads always implied that Wayland somehow forces every DE to have their own compositor. But if that isn't what you mean (perhaps something was lost in translation) then ok and I hope that we don't get to hear that argument again.

I've never hated on Wayland.

There is not a single topic covering Wayland where you don't have a negative comment on the first page, it doesn't matter what the topic is, but you are there complaining about how bad Wayland is and how it will never be better. So excuse me for "confusing" this for you hating on Wayland, not sure how to see it any other way though.

I want to use Wayland and I cannot because in your imaginary world "it just works", in reality Wayland is more or less usable only under Gnome and KDE because all other implementations are horribly incomplete and there's no guarantee they will ever be complete.

And here you go with your strawmanning again, I have not written a single thing indicating that Wayland "just works", seriously man I sometimes wonder if you are caught up with so many threads at the same time that you loose track of who it is you are currently talking to.

Your entire comment is a load of lies, insults and complete lack of knowledge. But Michael will ban me because it's totally fine to insult me, especially when multiple forum members do it day in and out. God, you're despicable but whatever. Being anonymous is great isn't it? Shitting on others non-stop with zero repercussions.

So as presented there where no lies, not sure where you found any insults either (since I never use such language despite always being name-calling by you [such as "you're despicable"] note how this is always only from one side, aka yours, that this is happening) so I take it that you are simply projecting.

[timrichardson]

Everyone? Linux is just 2% of desktop users. Wayland is less than that. And then how many Wayland compositors are getting it? And how soon?

I'm not excited about anything Wayland related unless the huge fragmentation issue is solved.

And yet, you use a 2% share OS. It's more like 3% now, by the way. It seems to be going up finally. Maybe that's a Wayland effect.

[smitty3268]

Not gonna comment on the rest of your comment because you don't get the basics and spew utter nonsense over and over again like most other Wayland proponents.

The rest was me convinced you had confused me with someone else, because your comments made zero sense and seemed to be putting words in my mouth that i never said.

But with that response, I'm now not sure. Maybe you really were just spewing nonsense my direction intentionally. Very convenient of you to decide to just skip over it.

[varikonniemi]

Everyone? Linux is just 2% of desktop users. Wayland is less than that. And then how many Wayland compositors are getting it? And how soon?

I'm not excited about anything Wayland related unless the huge fragmentation issue is solved.

you are a fragmentation issue and should be defragmented

[avis]

The rest was me convinced you had confused me with someone else, because your comments made zero sense and seemed to be putting words in my mouth that i never said.

But with that response, I'm now not sure. Maybe you really were just spewing nonsense my direction intentionally. Very convenient of you to decide to just skip over it.

I was diagnosed with ADD, you seem to be fine.

They why the hell did you completely overlook this: "X servers could be used interchangeably. Wayland compositors are glued to the respective DEs/WMs and normally cannot be used anywhere else. There never will be any consolidation." which totally negates your insinuations about the future of Wayland? The hell you're trying to make it personal instead of addressing my arguments?

Why are you saying insulting crap like this: "Why are you obsessed with this?"

I want to use Wayland and it's currently more or less supported well only under Gnome and KDE. All other its implementations are woefully incomplete. What arguments do you have for its fragmentation and implementations lacking crucial features because they are quite difficult to implement?

I've been using Linux for over 25 years now. I want it to work well for everybody, not just you or the other guy in this thread who doesn't understand fragmentation, nor he even cares about it. Absolute no ones, who have done exactly nothing for Open Source, Linux or Wayland in particular tell me "it's all fine" and "there's no cause for concern" despite Wayland being utter trash outside of KDE and Gnome.

God, I have a strong desire to vomit. Screw this topic and I'm out of it. Stop quoting me for Christ's sake. Enjoy your next-gen display server.

[varikonniemi]

I thought Finnish people were amicable, honest and respectful, looks like not, at least not all of them. I don't care though, it's you being mean, not me.

"I have no counter-arguments and I hate this guy for speaking the truth. What can I? Oh, let's say something nasty and ugly about him".

Boy, oh boy.

you are not only assuming my nationality, but also dismissing my notice on your foul language. How dare you!?