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KDE Adds NVIDIA GPU Power Reporting, Plasma Wayland Crash Fix

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  • #11
    Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
    People don't believe you because there are countless others who manage to not screw it up. It's not hard to deliberately break something, and it's also not hard to break something when trying to make it do something it wasn't built to do.
    Reminds me of Linus from LTT legitimately trying Linux for the first time and he unintentionally completely borked his system on camera (and from what I recall, he wasn't using KDE). He wasn't doing anything particularly stupid as a newbie. When situations like that happen, there are so many possible ways you could point fingers of who should be responsible for his experience.

    You don't appear to be a noob, and therefore you should know better. While there is absolutely some responsibility on the KDE devs to make it so their system can't be so easily broken by the user (at least give detailed error messages rather than just crash), I am quite confident you are the problem if it breaks that quickly and easily. Think of it like complaining about the reliability of a car when you redline it at every shift, regularly hit potholes, and pour in the wrong oil - none of that disputes whether the car really does have crappy reliability, but you're just making things way worse.
    To give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you're using some distro with poorly maintained KDE or Qt packages (I've had many issues with LXQt because the distro used an outdated Qt version). Maybe you're using some dysfunctional GPU driver that wrongly claims to support an API call KDE uses (and perhaps other DEs don't). But whenever someone manages to screw up KDE so quickly, I always wonder what their repo configuration looks like and what packages they managed to install or remove. To fail that easily means something is straying way too far from a recommended/default configuration.
    IIRC, Linus Tech Tips guy followed some random NVIDIA driver installation guide off of Google instead of something provided by Ubuntu. The apt install even warned him not to continue and instead of figuring out why he shouldn't he messed up his system by overriding a warning. There's pretending to be a noob and then there's just being stupid. He was both that day since most everyone I know that isn't dumb will stop and either try to google the problem or just call me for help when they get a warning like what he got that day.

    But I do agree with the rest of that. So many people use KDE on distributions that you shouldn't use KDE on, like Ubuntu and Debian (they're a lot better than they were 5 years ago, I'll give them that). Then you have the "ultra minimalist" fools that try to remove as many packages as possible like they're still rocking 256MB HDD and KDE is basically the exact opposite in that regard. I intentionally install every single KDE package offered because that's how their build tool works -- unless you tell it otherwise it builds the whole damn thing for you to use so I figure that's a good sign to install everything they offer. Minimalists wouldn't do that and then they wonder why stuff doesn't work or they get odd crashes that no one else gets.

    IMHO, that highlights something I've always suspected -- that KDE needs a dependency audit to shift more of their optional dependencies into required dependencies so the user environment is more inline with the development environment.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by user1 View Post

      Well, like I said in my first comment, for me it crashed just by customizing my panel a bit. But this was right after a clean install of Kubuntu, which has one of the best KDE implementation and it's the most stable KDE experience for me. So while obscure configuration may trigger bugs or crashes, it's certainly not the main cause.
      Kubuntu. That's probably why. In my experiences that's one of the KDE desktops to steer clear from. I've had good luck with Fedora, Arch, Manjaro, Void, and SUSE Tumbleweed. I've had bad luck with Kubuntu, KDE Neon, OpenSUSE/SUSE, Debian, CentOS (Stream 9). I have an RX 580. If you have an NVIDIA you'll have a worse experience than me regardless because KDE (Linux/Wayland to be more specific) doesn't have the greatest NVIDIA support...or NVIDIA doesn't have the greatest KDE support...Chicken and Egg...

      Basically, AMD or Intel GPU on a relatively modern and rolling Linux OS will do you good for KDE Plasma.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        You don't appear to be a noob, and therefore you should know better.
        You might argue, but I guess I'm no noob.

        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        While there is absolutely some responsibility on the KDE devs to make it so their system can't be so easily broken by the user (at least give detailed error messages rather than just crash), I am quite confident you are the problem if it breaks that quickly and easily. Think of it like complaining about the reliability of a car when you redline it at every shift, regularly hit potholes, and pour in the wrong oil - none of that disputes whether the car really does have crappy reliability, but you're just making things way worse.
        To give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you're using some distro with poorly maintained KDE or Qt packages (I've had many issues with LXQt because the distro used an outdated Qt version). Maybe you're using some dysfunctional GPU driver that wrongly claims to support an API call KDE uses (and perhaps other DEs don't). But whenever someone manages to screw up KDE so quickly, I always wonder what their repo configuration looks like and what packages they managed to install or remove. To fail that easily means something is straying way too far from a recommended/default configuration.
        [/QUOTE]

        It's like this: People always rant about missing customizability in gnome, so you might think KDE would be great in that. I always think of KDE as being mostly unorganized, but thats a different story...
        So I start KDE and click some standard customization Buttons and that mostly always ends in crash. I don't think I do absolutely edge case stuff, but I do get crashes...

        You might be a fan of that Windows 95 desktop metaphor or you aren't, you're free in choice and will have your personal likings. But I do really have quite some doubts in KDE code quality and maturity. The story ends abruptely if things are crashy...

        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        To give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you're using some distro with poorly maintained KDE or Qt packages (I've had many issues with LXQt because the distro used an outdated Qt version).
        ​​
        Ubuntu or seldomly Fedora.

        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        Maybe you're using some dysfunctional GPU driver that wrongly claims to support an API call KDE uses (and perhaps other DEs don't).
        ​​​
        Siwthching between AMD RX6800 on my personal desktop or Intel skylake igpu on my thinkpad work notebook. I expect those to be ok, since I don't see the same problems on other DEs.

        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        But whenever someone manages to screw up KDE so quickly, I always wonder what their repo configuration looks like and what packages they managed to install or remove.​
        ​​​​
        I don't use any special KDE or Qt related external repositores. There is a mozilla nightly ppa and element messenger and some more like those, but nothing I would consider to be relevant for KDE or Qt.

        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        ​To fail that easily means something is straying way too far from a recommended/default configuration.
        I don't notice anything obvious.

        Comment


        • #14
          Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

          Kubuntu. That's probably why. In my experiences that's one of the KDE desktops to steer clear from. I've had good luck with Fedora, Arch, Manjaro, Void, and SUSE Tumbleweed. I've had bad luck with Kubuntu, KDE Neon, OpenSUSE/SUSE, Debian, CentOS (Stream 9). I have an RX 580. If you have an NVIDIA you'll have a worse experience than me regardless because KDE (Linux/Wayland to be more specific) doesn't have the greatest NVIDIA support...or NVIDIA doesn't have the greatest KDE support...Chicken and Egg...

          Basically, AMD or Intel GPU on a relatively modern and rolling Linux OS will do you good for KDE Plasma.
          I actually had the best experience with Kubuntu out of all other KDE distros I tried. I think the reason why is because it almost always ships the last point release of a certain Plasma version, so that means as much as possible bugs introduced in a new major Plasma version are fixed. And yeah, I also have an RX 580 and always used Plasma on X11.

          That being said, Kubuntu certainly wasn't as flawless as it is now. I remember 15.04 and 15.10 releases from 2015 were a trainwreck. Part of the reason was of course the newly released Plasma 5 but also because the project itself was in jeopardy that year (there were conflicts of the previous project lead with Canonical and then he left that year).
          Idk which versions of Kubuntu you've tried, but all the last few releases since 19.04 were very stable (I mean no other serious bugs apart from the type of crashes I mentioned).

          Comment


          • #15
            Originally posted by user1 View Post

            I actually had the best experience with Kubuntu out of all other KDE distros I tried. I think the reason why is because it almost always ships the last point release of a certain Plasma version, so that means as much as possible bugs introduced in a new major Plasma version are fixed. And yeah, I also have an RX 580 and always used Plasma on X11.

            That being said, Kubuntu certainly wasn't as flawless as it is now. I remember 15.04 and 15.10 releases from 2015 were a trainwreck. Part of the reason was of course the newly released Plasma 5 but also because the project itself was in jeopardy that year (there were conflicts of the previous project lead with Canonical and then he left that year).
            Idk which versions of Kubuntu you've tried, but all the last few releases since 19.04 were very stable (I mean no other serious bugs apart from the type of crashes I mentioned).
            20.04.? about half a year after Ubuntu 20.04 came out. Neon a few months after that. Before that it was 17.10. For whatever reason I've never had the best KDE experience on Deb/Ubu based systems.

            I remember the trainwreck days. Back in the 17 releases and earlier KDE would be many, many versions behind upstream and seemingly froze at random.

            Comment


            • #16
              Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post
              So I start KDE and click some standard customization Buttons and that mostly always ends in crash. I don't think I do absolutely edge case stuff, but I do get crashes...
              Hence my "benefit of the doubt" comments, because KDE should not crash that easily from what is otherwise basic behavior. Something else must be wrong, because most people who stick with KDE are known to heavily customize it. Like you said, that is part of the appeal.
              You might be a fan of that Windows 95 desktop metaphor or you aren't, you're free in choice and will have your personal likings. But I do really have quite some doubts in KDE code quality and maturity. The story ends abruptely if things are crashy...
              I'm not sure I know the metaphor? I am aware W95 was an unstable mess but I'm not sure what the metaphor is.
              Ubuntu or seldomly Fedora.
              Ubuntu may be part of the problem. I haven't used Ubuntu+KDE in many years (back when KDE was actually in bad shape, no matter what distro you used) but I do recall maintenance conflicts between Ubuntu and KDE for a few years. I assume things are in better shape now but I wouldn't be surprised if it's still bad.
              Siwthching between AMD RX6800 on my personal desktop or Intel skylake igpu on my thinkpad work notebook. I expect those to be ok, since I don't see the same problems on other DEs.
              I believe GPU switching is still a known issue with KDE. Not entirely sure though; never tried it myself. The only reason I say that is because there's no doubt that KDE has issues but the symptoms you describe don't seem normal.
              I don't use any special KDE or Qt related external repositores. There is a mozilla nightly ppa and element messenger and some more like those, but nothing I would consider to be relevant for KDE or Qt.
              Maybe you don't use relevant special additional repos, but are you using unstable repos? Are you mixing up 1st party repos (like stable with experimental)? Did you install KDE as Kubuntu, did you install from a meta-package, or did you selectively install the pieces you wanted?
              These are the sorts of things that broke KDE in my experience. Today I use it with Arch, where the only issues are the ones that even the devs acknowledge.
              KDE is most stable when it's not missing anything and when all of its dependencies are the expected version. Ubuntu isn't good at keeping KDE's dependencies aligned, and its meta packages (from my experience) aren't great.
              I'm not using this to defend KDE, because GNOME (in my experience) is a lot more flexible about such things, I'm just saying what makes for a stable experience.

              Comment


              • #17
                I'm not sure how much, if any hyberbole is going on here. I've had an excellent experience wjth KDE. Not flawless, but it checks the most boxes for me by miles. I bet when X sessions are desupported, that'll probably narrow the support and testing scope quite a bit.

                I'm absolutely loving the XWayland scaling changes in 5.26.3. It's like a dream come true. It's at a level where even my work's Windows 10 computer looks drab in comparison. In my view, Wayland is Production ready.

                The KDE people are incredible and I read PointiestStick blog just like I did as kid reading an article about an upcoming Harry Potter film: with wide-eyed enthusiasm.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by cl333r View Post
                  Bugs after like 10 years of KDE work on wayland:
                  - Plasma should no longer randomly crash when moving the cursor
                  I've never experienced that bug, not on Wayland and not on X11.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

                    IIRC, Linus Tech Tips guy followed some random NVIDIA driver installation guide off of Google instead of something provided by Ubuntu. The apt install even warned him not to continue and instead of figuring out why he shouldn't he messed up his system by overriding a warning. There's pretending to be a noob and then there's just being stupid. He was both that day since most everyone I know that isn't dumb will stop and either try to google the problem or just call me for help when they get a warning like what he got that day.
                    I don't entirely agree. One of the issues with Linux is there are too many ways to skin a cat and some are a lot more wrong than others. How is he supposed to know the guide shouldn't be followed? Why should he expect half his system to get wiped out because of trying to install drivers? You're not wrong that there are noob things he should have done differently but he's definitely not entirely at fault for what he experienced.
                    There are things we take for granted as being simple because we've done them for years. I cut noobs slack when they make system breaking mistakes, but most people here who complain about KDE should consider what they're doing so different to have such a worse experience than others with a similar level of skill or knowledge.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by user1 View Post

                      Well, like I said in my first comment, for me it crashed just by customizing my panel a bit. But this was right after a clean install of Kubuntu, which has one of the best KDE implementation and it's the most stable KDE experience for me. So while obscure configuration may trigger bugs or crashes, it's certainly not the main cause.
                      I probably don't know what I am talking about since I am a noob, but it seems while it might be a KDE issue it also might be a distro issue. I have tried Kubuntu, KDE neon, FerenOS, Garuda Linux Dragonized KDE, and EndeavorOS KDE all had issues on my system from hangs and crashes. Thus I had to settle on Manjaro KDE and recently found Biglinux (based on Manjaro) and no issues or hangs. Super stable and in case of Biglinux no heating issues I was seeing with Manjaro. KDE implementation looks to matter. Just my 2 cents.

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