KDE To Support Matrix Decentralized Instant Messaging

[DJViking]

We are using Matrix and Riot for instant messaging. If this means we can use a different client than Riot, then I think this will be a good improvement for KDE.

[gbcox]

No audio and video calls?



Matrix is protocol meaning, you can change Matrix client the same way you can change different email clients. You can try Fractal which is Gtk+ matrix client. Also why would you get KGB backed messaging app.

I'm keeping an open mind about Matrix - but as I mentioned before when it comes to IM you have to take into consideration what your friends and colleagues use - and at this point it's pretty much a non-starter. Telegram remains the best compromise for Linux - it is a GPLv3 based client and has a relatively large user base.

As far as the KGB is concerned - you're misinformed. Telegram has nothing to do with Russia - quite to the contrary, it's banned in Russia due to the fact that Telegram refused to hand over it's encryption keys.

[paupav]

It's not the only one in its kind, though. Delta Chat is a more popular direct competitor to this.

No audio and video calls?

Yeah, IM is hard - because for it to be effective you need not only like and use it, but it also needs to be somewhat popular to have friends, colleagues, etc. jump on the bandwagon. The only application I've been able to find that foots that bill is Telegram. It has a native client for just about every known platform - including Linux - and the Linux client is GPLv3.

I'll definitely look into matrix, but I'm not optimistic that it will reach any type of critical mass which would make it a true competitor in the already crowded IM space. The best solution for the Linux community right now for a mainstream IM client is Telegram.

P.S. Just did a quick look into matrix and found that it's desktop client for Linux is electron based - which means it's basically just a chromium web page. The Telegram client is Qt based - which again points to Telegram's commitment to provide a native client for every platform. Apparently, Matrix not so much.

Matrix is protocol meaning, you can change Matrix client the same way you can change different email clients. You can try Fractal which is Gtk+ matrix client. Also why would you get KGB backed messaging app.

[bug77]

At the moment there, are *over 400 XEPs* (at various stages like "deprecated", "experimental" or even "retracted"). I don't think adding more complexity and more XEPs is going to solve XMPP's problems. It's not entirely clear what you should and need to support if you are writing a client. Interaction between XEPs isn't always specified. It's a huge mess and I don't think it is salvageable at this point.

That's what I meant by "proper governance" - XEPs cannot be left in limbo for years.
However, for what you need to support, I think that's rather well documented: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0387.html
And XEPs, like plugins in general, should be independent of each other. If you start defining interaction between them, you're going to get a real mess on your hands.

I agree with you that people have probably moved on at this point so no one is going to save XMPP. I was just saying, strictly from a technical point of view, it is salvageable.

[brent]

Tbh, there's no technical reason XMPP messages cannot be directly translated to JSON/BSON/protobuf. And the long lived HTTP connection can be turned into an web socket. Thus the protocol could be more modern and efficient.
Of course, proper governance and stewardship of XEPs would still be required.

At the moment there, are *over 400 XEPs* (at various stages like "deprecated", "experimental" or even "retracted"). I don't think adding more complexity and more XEPs is going to solve XMPP's problems. It's not entirely clear what you should and need to support if you are writing a client. Interaction between XEPs isn't always specified. It's a huge mess and I don't think it is salvageable at this point.

[bug77]

IRC is an ASCII based arbitrary text wire protocol.
XMPP is XML soup.
Matrix is HTTP and JSON based, so everything is http methods passing around json objects.

As someone who has contributed to Konversation, KDE Telepathy, Pidgin, and various Matrix projects... nobody wants to try to work in either the IRC or XMPP protocols. They are giant dumpsterfire messes, be it because they are too nebulous and cross-client support is atrocious, or because they are too bureaucratic in how so many extension proposals turned out. At least when we have something as clean as http json apis like Matrix now.

You can spec out the matrix client API with most JSON libraries in a weekend by comparison. The only hard parts to support are WebRTC and the Matrix OLM because they both require third party libraries be included and integrated with your GUI.

Tbh, there's no technical reason XMPP messages cannot be directly translated to JSON/BSON/protobuf. And the long lived HTTP connection can be turned into an web socket. Thus the protocol could be more modern and efficient.
Of course, proper governance and stewardship of XEPs would still be required.

[zanny]

What I don't understand is the purpose of Matrix: It seems to me that instead of fixing/improving existing IMs, they're reinventing the wheel.
Existing IMs: IRC and XMPP. Both have mature servers and clients, have vetted protocols (In RFCs!).
So: Why Matrix?

IRC is an ASCII based arbitrary text wire protocol.
XMPP is XML soup.
Matrix is HTTP and JSON based, so everything is http methods passing around json objects.

As someone who has contributed to Konversation, KDE Telepathy, Pidgin, and various Matrix projects... nobody wants to try to work in either the IRC or XMPP protocols. They are giant dumpsterfire messes, be it because they are too nebulous and cross-client support is atrocious, or because they are too bureaucratic in how so many extension proposals turned out. At least when we have something as clean as http json apis like Matrix now.

You can spec out the matrix client API with most JSON libraries in a weekend by comparison. The only hard parts to support are WebRTC and the Matrix OLM because they both require third party libraries be included and integrated with your GUI.

[Nocifer]

But, from my understanding, being distributed would be better for us, users, that like privacy and security, wouldn't it?

It's decentralized, because it does need servers to operate, but it's also distributed in the sense that the metadata is shared only between the participating users/homeservers, which can be completely independent from the "central" Matrix network (which in fact does not really exist, in the same way that a "central" email network does not exist either, it's simply autonomous servers optionally talking to each other).

How is Matrix different from e.g. Delta Chat?

For one, it allows for voice and video calls (granted, the latter with the use of an extra software component). And also it allows for other chat protocols to communicate with itself and each other via bridges, so it allows for existing IM users to still use their IM network of choice (granted, pretty much everyone these days has an email address, so this point can be considered moot). And also it's a proper chat protocol with all the bells and whistles that come with one, and not just a glorified mailing list. Other than that, though, I can't say this Delta Chat sounds bad, quite the contrary. But despite what you've said about it being "more popular", this is the first time I've ever heard of it.

[Vistaus]

IRC is obviously too old compared to the competition. I know... you can do a lot with IRC if you know the commands and everything and it's a protocol that will always be there, and it's 130% open and everything. But it's basically just a text messaging app and modern apps can do a LOT more than just that.

As for XMPP, I had high hopes for this protocol... but in the end it's unusable. There is no client (to my knowledge) that does it well. I'm talking about basic text messaging of course, but also voice chat, video chat, screen sharing, file sharing, extensibility, etc..

All this is available in Matrix and its client, Riot. As paupav said, it really feels like e-mail 2.0.

How is Matrix different from e.g. Delta Chat?

[Vistaus]

Can you video call using different apps on different networks? Matrix is Skype, Viber, Discord, Slack, Email killer. You basically have something like email (@user:server.com) with a lot of modern features. It should be called E-mail 2.0.

It's not the only one in its kind, though. Delta Chat is a more popular direct competitor to this.