Ubuntu's Unity Desktop Can Now Run Natively On Windows

[starshipeleven]

And by "traditional desktop" you mean the Windows 95 desktop right?

It goes quite a bit older than that, back to when xerox invented the whole idea of it since it didn't change that much apart from graphics, but yeah, for younger fellows, that's a traditional desktop too.

I simply adapt to what's in front of me and what I have to use,

I do so too, but I'm more efficient with a desktop UI customized to my needs (I do tweak things to my needs).

For example on Android I use Smart Launcher, a different UI that groups up applications by type since I'm not a fan of scrolling 6 pages each time I need something specific.

so I don't get this notion that you have to join a "desktop style team" and bash the other "teams" and you can only pay homage to one of them, and once you do that it automatically means that you hate the alternatives.

The desktop is like your home. You fill it with random PINK furniture, and install sliding doors everywhere just because "you must pay homage to all house styles"?

The PC user interface is a tool I use to do stuff for most of my wake hours, unless someone is forcing me to (like the PC at work that is on windows because reasons, but it is a bit customized too), I prefer to use a tool I'm more efficient with.

That said, I'm not bashing Canonical over unity's GUI choices, but over the fact that they based it on Mir instead of Wayland and went the NIH way on many other things that they could have just customized/expanded an off-the-shelf program for.

[starshipeleven]

Canonical is trying multiple ways to make real money and get their name known. As a "real world" company I think it is natural, but this is the main reason people here do not like them that much. (the 2d is Unity that most hate without even trying it really but this is off-topic)

Wrong. The main (sensible) reason people hate Canonical is because they try to do shit that is contrary to opensource.
Not adhering to standards (the whole point of opensource is that you share work instead of reinventing wheels), adding CLA that is basically a trick to avoid GPL if they feel like it, and so on and so forth.

If Canonical was a company dealing with closed source stuff that would be perfectly OK, and even required. But in the opensource world it's dumb as it does not allow them to leverage the power of the community.

Redhat makes stuff that follows standards and everyone likes, systemd and pulseaudio saw a ridicolously large uptake and contributions by other distros, meanwhile Canonical's Upstart got axed by Debian mantainers (yes, Debian mantainers decided that Upstart was not worth mantaining and Canonical switched to systemd shortly after, talk about trying to use resources you don't have), bazaar is something unknown for most, Unity/Mir isn't seen anywhere outside Ubuntu and the two hardcore distros (Arch and Gentoo).

Mark Shutterworth is convinced that convergence is the key to success and he is right.

yes, but he will never reach it if he keeps reinventing wheels instead of adapting what is out already. He is acting like he is MS, with deep pockets and limitless developer power.

For the M$ lunch : this would be fun I agree. But I am not waiting it at all. Generally when one day M$ buys something, the next day it dies.

Canonical has always been a zombie, it cannot really die.

[starshipeleven]

Having a banged up Macbook with lots of stickers plastering the Apple logo is actually a rite of passage amongst certain groups of open source developers, regardless of the OS on that machine.

Yeah, that's a weird ritual I've seen here too. Many don't seem to fully accept they are using a Apple device.

There are pretty cool stickers to do that tho.

[unixfan2001]

Yeah, that's a weird ritual I've seen here too. Many don't seem to fully accept they are using a Apple device.

There are pretty cool stickers to do that tho.

There are also decals that use the apple symbol as a sort of centrepiece.
Personally, I don't have a Macbook anymore. Would gladly buy a Macbook Air, if only Apple were releasing a new one.
As it stands, I'm either buying an Asus Zenbook UX305CA or wait for the Razer Blade Stealth to make its way to Europe.

[devius]

It goes quite a bit older than that, back to when xerox invented the whole idea of it since it didn't change that much apart from graphics,

Are you talking about Xerox Star? Because that has nothing to do with Windows 95, except for the fact that it has icons and windows, but all current graphical UIs have those.

The desktop is like your home. You fill it with random PINK furniture, and install sliding doors everywhere just because "you must pay homage to all house styles"?

Except that it isn't. It's just a tool, it's nothing like a house. Also, I don't modify my PC desktop to look like all other desktops, I just stick to the defaults of whatever it is I'm using, be it Windows 3.11, Ubuntu or Fedora, except for maybe the wallpaper so, the analogy of house decoration is a bit lost on me, sorry.

The PC user interface is a tool I use to do stuff for most of my wake hours, unless someone is forcing me to (like the PC at work that is on windows because reasons, but it is a bit customized too), I prefer to use a tool I'm more efficient with.

I can relate to that since I also had to use Windows XP and Vista at one point at work, when I had already moved to linux full-time for my personal computers. You seem to really like software, but in my case I prefer the hardware, so I don't care that much what desktop I'm using, although I tend to avoid modern versions of Windows, and older versions I just use for nostalgic reasons and because it's the best (or only) way to play some older games.

That said, I'm not bashing Canonical over unity's GUI choices, but over the fact that they based it on Mir instead of Wayland and went the NIH way on many other things that they could have just customized/expanded an off-the-shelf program for.

Right, but it's still open-source, so I don't think it's that different from all the other projects that duplicate functionality that exist elsewhere. And they are adopting a lot of projects that superseded their version of the same thing, like SystemD and the Software Center, so you'll probably get what you want eventually.

[Passso]

Wrong. The main (sensible) reason people hate Canonical is because they try to do shit that is contrary to opensource.
Not adhering to standards (the whole point of opensource is that you share work instead of reinventing wheels), adding CLA that is basically a trick to avoid GPL if they feel like it, and so on and so forth.

<lots of stuff I more or less agree with>

Canonical has always been a zombie, it cannot really die.

Seems really too hard over Canonical imo. All they do is trying hard for convergence and it means acting solo, praying for the community to follow, which... never happens I agree.
A lot of their projects may seem to be duplicates from other projects, adapted for their needs, ok.

But Ubuntu is reliable, they bring a lot of users to the Linux community, all their projects are open source.

I do not understand why Canonical is more hated than M$ in this forum. The same paradox applies to the NVidia bash, who deliver day1 perfect drivers since start and get bashed.

[starshipeleven]

Are you talking about Xerox Star? Because that has nothing to do with Windows 95, except for the fact that it has icons and windows, but all current graphical UIs have those.

Are you stupid? That's the desktop UI standard that didn't change much.
Keeping stuff in "folders", using a dedicated program to browse the filesystem, accessing programs from a list, was present since that times. Apple was the first one that marketed a successful device with that interface, then Windows followed.

Win95 adds only better graphics, but the UI works exactly the same.

All computer systems have a more or less similar UI, only differences are the ones that tried to import shit from mobile devices without understanding usability (Gnome 3, and Windows 8 for example).

If you look at mobile it's different. Files are stored wherever, and applications look at a system-wide index of files, don't usually ask the user to traverse the filesystem through folders.

Except that it isn't. It's just a tool, it's nothing like a house.

It's not esthetics, it's functionality (just like a house, sliding doors are stupid).
I expect to be able to call a terminal with a key, I expect to get readouts of what the hell is doing the PC with CPU/RAM/network AT A GLANCE, I expect to have stuff I use in places where I can find it easily and so on and so forth as I need that to troubleshoot shit quickly.

If to open a specific program I need to traverse through 3 submenus or write its name and I need to open that program often, it's annoying and eventually wastes my time

Then there is also esthetics reasons.

You seem to really like software,

I work with software, also to troubleshoot most hardware I need a PC, yes. The PC is my desk, my workplace.

My real-life desk is a mess, but I'm not using it much anyway.

but in my case I prefer the hardware,

You prefer to pimp the PC with lights and shit?

Right, but it's still open-source, so I don't think it's that different from all the other projects that duplicate functionality that exist elsewhere.

You should really STFU if you don't know what you are talking about. There is X11 which is the old display server, Wayland wich is the new protocol used by the new display server(s) embedded in compositors, used by EVERY FUCKING ONE that isn't Ubuntu, and receiving contributions from EVERY FUCKING ONE that isn't Canonical.

Then there is Mir, a display protocol/server used and developed by Canonical.

a display server isn't a mail application, it's the program all other applications must talk with to show a graphical interface at all, and must off-load to the kernel to the that stuff rendered.

Making their own shitty different standard will only mean that applications will run in legacy fallback mode when on Unity as none in his right mind will add support for a display server used by ONE distro.

And they are adopting a lot of projects that superseded their version of the same thing, like SystemD and the Software Center, so you'll probably get what you want eventually.

"systemd", not SystemD.

That said, I'm not sure how "getting what I want eventually" even matters. I'm on openSUSE + KDE, and it's fine.

[starshipeleven]

All they do is trying hard for convergence and it means acting solo

Wayland is used successfully on mobile too, and making a convergence that everyone can use would be cool for everyone.

But no, they want THEIR OWN little convergence since they want to use that as a selling point. This would work if they had the resources to pull it off alone. They don't.

A lot of their projects may seem to be duplicates from other projects, adapted for their needs, ok.

Rewritten from scratch you mean. It's all resources wasted.

all their projects are open source.

All their projects have CLA that allows them to turn them into closed-source.

I do not understand why Canonical is more hated than M$ in this forum.

I already told why. Shitty trickery to use opensource but in a closed-source way. That's using it wrong.

The same paradox applies to the NVidia bash, who deliver day1 perfect drivers since start and get bashed.

Because their driver's aren't opensource, so they aren't doing it the linux way.

If I wanted closed drivers I'd use Windows. The only reason Linux makes sense is that it follows a different philosophy than windows.

[Passso]

Wayland is used successfully on mobile too, and making a convergence that everyone can use would be cool for everyone.

But no, they want THEIR OWN little convergence since they want to use that as a selling point. This would work if they had the resources to pull it off alone. They don't.

Rewritten from scratch you mean. It's all resources wasted.

All their projects have CLA that allows them to turn them into closed-source.

I already told why. Shitty trickery to use opensource but in a closed-source way. That's using it wrong.

Because their driver's aren't opensource, so they aren't doing it the linux way.

If I wanted closed drivers I'd use Windows. The only reason Linux makes sense is that it follows a different philosophy than windows.

You used to be more balanced and pragmatic in your judgments before. I wish debianxfce comes back and (try to) kick your ass again.

CLA cannot override opensource. GPL applies in any case.

And concerning NVidia, as I wrote before, they do respect Linux users. I like Linux desktop and use it exclusively, with proprietary softwares and drivers if they are better.
I have no problem with companies adding products on it, this is real freedom.

[Gusar]

CLA cannot override opensource. GPL applies in any case.

People associate more with open source than just availability of the source. It's also about open collaboration, everyone working together on the same codebase. The Canonical CLA is a barrier to that, it's a big reason why there aren't any outside contributors to Mir (besides the one where everyone else already decided on Wayland since before Mir even existed), it's a reason why Snappy highly likely won't see any outside contribution either, while Flatpak does (all Snappy contributors are Canonical employees, but Flatpak has already gotten contributions from outside Red Hat).

There was one Canonical project that actually did get buy-in from outside - PID1 on RHEL/CentOS 6 is Upstart. So why isn't everyone using Upstart today, and instead systemd has seen wide adoption among distros? Easy answer, the Canonical CLA.

Put is simply, there's more to software than just its license. The CLA cannot override open source, you're right about that, but it can and it *does* prevent wider adoption of Canonical tech. And it does make Canonical play in their own little sandbox, instead of being out there in the big sandbox where everyone else is.


About Nvidia, they get bashed because they only focus on their proprietary driver, while their contribution to nouveau is minimal. Contrast that with AMD and their contribution to open source graphics. Also, Nvidia has certainly not made any friends by going with EGLStreams instead of GBM, which is a situation quite similar to the Mir/Wayland thing.