Devuan 1.0 Makes It To A Release Candidate: Debian Without Systemd

[sjukfan]

Most of you guys are idiots. Really. Why do you make systemd or not into something that is almost religious? If you use it you're a windows sellout working with Red Hat, and if you don't use it you're one of thirty people who hate anything new. When Debian went systemd the pro side said "well do you own thing without systemd then?", and now when they do they still whine. On the other hand calling systemd names like systemdodo isn't in any way less childish.

Some people want to use systemd, some people don't. Why not just accept their decisions and go about with your own thing? Linux is awesome because there's different approaches to different things and we don't have to use the same software.

[groharpon42]

Staying on sysvinit and calling it "init freedom" is one of the things that made me say Devuan is a very stupid choice.
Give it OpenRC at least, damnit.

Why not runit ? I know very little about init systems but I use void linux every day and I'm very happy with it.

[profoundWHALE]

Heh, most BSDs use sysvinit because it's more Unix or something.

FreeBSD uses rc

https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=rc&sektion=8

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/rc-scripting/

https://www.textplain.net/blog/2015/problems-with-systemd-and-why-i-like-bsd-init/

Less-dumb BSDs like TruOS use Gentoo's init, OpenRC, also called "what Upstart was supposed to become".
It is still script-based but is at least modern and can multithread properly the startup among other things.

I don't think it would be "What Upstart was supposed to become" but OpenRC did come out a year after Upstart.

Staying on sysvinit and calling it "init freedom" is one of the things that made me say Devuan is a very stupid choice.
Give it OpenRC at least, damnit.

This I agree with. There seems to be no advantage with sysvinit over OpenRC

[profoundWHALE]

The sooner that we can all decide on Wayland (mir is dead), and systemd (upstart is dead), the faster that development will happen on all platforms. People were freaking out over what Canonical was doing and the fragmentation, and now stuff like this happens.

Please do no ask anybody to decide on these, as these are pushed things. But no, you also claim that other options are dead, so it looks like remainng ones are normal... so there no even question nor what to decide there

I don't think you read the whole part of what I wrote, since you only quoted the first part. I ended it with saying:

That being said, there should be a distro like this available for those who use sysvinit extensively already, much in the same way that Canonical will still support maintaining basic Mir functionality for IoT.

[creative]

Don't know if anyone has posted this but I am sure many know of it. Below is link with a list of many many non systemd distributions.

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

I keep saying it and saying it but yes there will be that mighty and sacred day that I return to Slackware and once again reside in that wonderful place. That being said Ubuntu Studio for now. Ubuntu Studio mad props to you your LTS releases have had little issues for me.

[oiaohm]

https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=rc.subr&sektion=8

Read run_rc_command then compared to what sysvinit run command does and you will find bsd rc is doing a lot more. Even the freebsd man page does fail to mention its used a login per service so services doing bad things are in fact traceable when they are not under sysvinit.

Yes rc and sysvinit look the same because both have /etc/rc.d directories but they function vastly differently. BSD rc is designed to work with the BSD kernel and function correctly. Sysvinit needs to be replaced. If you like something like sysvinit work on openrc.

runit still has the issue of being designed only to use posix functions to be cross platform so does not behave 100 percent correctly on Linux or BSD kernels. Its the event when a parent process dies and the child end up connected to pid1 just like sysvinit runit has nothing on the processes run to tell you what service has done that. Openrc, Systemd and bsd rc all have ways of getting what started the process that is now connected to pid1.

Yes it possible to make a init system fully in scripts that functions properly BSD proves this. Sysvinit does not function properly no amount of demand sysvinit has changed that fact. I have not seen any new version that attempt to address the faults other than openrc. Yes we don't like systemd is one thing. Not fixing the faults in sysvinit and saying stay with sysvinit is stupid behaviour.

Complain that systemd is broken and suggesting change to another broken with no roadmap to fix it faults like sysvinit is going to be rejected by a lot of people.

If you don't like systemd make a init system that functions better in call cases. Don't ignore the corner case of defects. At least gentoo is attempting to-do that with openrc.

Why the distributions have gone systemd is they can seen a roadmap that over time should lead them away from the existing problems they had with sysvinit and possible to submit fixes up stream to fix systemd so the short term pain is worth it. No amount of blame Redhat, Microsoft or anyone else is going to change the reason Distributions changed away from sysvinit. Distributions attempted to go to upstart before systemd but a key part of it design was broken as well.

Yes lest ignore that most of the distributions that are running systemd now were running upstart to get away from sysvinit defects.

People need to stop blaming and take a serous look at the problem and be realistic.

Please stop the claim systemd is religious. Systemd users are not religious some of the anti-systemd people are with the religion of the Unix way. Systemd distribution and users like systemd because it addresses the problems they suffer from. Yes people hate systemd because it causes some problems for them as well. Those wanting to return to sysvinit are attempt to throw the baby out with the bath water. They have not bothered to learn what systemd is in fact doing better than sysvinit and then bringing something sysvinit like up to that level.

Reality is the Debian vote on systemd clearly left it open that the debate about what init system debian uses could be reopened if a init system that behaved properly is presented because systemd is not cross platform enough. The door is open to change de

[GreekGeek]

Hi yall & waxhead,

indeed an article about a Linux Distro, has caused many to respond with much OTT anger?. Apparently one must not mention Devuan, least it cause a mass manifestation of madness. Most odd indeed. One prefers civil company, on the whole....

As I CBF typing up why Devuan stuff again/gathering the data, you may want to have a look see @ the following: https://judecnelson.blogspot.com.au/...fallacies.html & http://without-systemd.org/wiki/inde...gainst_systemd.

By all means, whatever distro you prefer, for reasons that makes sense to you.

Have a lot of fun.

Greekgeek :-)

[bnolsen]

use archlinux mate or opensuse or fedora because if systemd is booting in 2m, my man there is something seriously and i mean seriously wrong with your boot process, probably xubuntu still using a lot of old style init scripts on compat mode or something horrible like that.

i mean even right now with ZFS loading several 2tb pools[2 of them resilvering] , postgresql, mysql, mongo, apache my xeon e3-1231v3 load gdm within 10s, i use ArchLinux and a regular sata 3 SSD transcend nothing too hardcore

My 2 main dev systems (athlon2 x4 for term and dual xeon e5 ivy bridge) are archlinux. Their boot times have also degraded with the systemd switchover and I have some problems with the term wireless and occasionally with the dual xeon's crossover cable network now occasionally stalling the whole boot process. I used to run an nfs server which wasn't much fun with systemd either...

I've moved my other systems over to void linux which is easily far more straightforward with how everything runs, and it's wicked fast. But definitely missing some polish and completeness. Poor overloaded maintainers...

systemd seems to me to be an overengineered arbitrary artificial layer which is just more crap to have to figure out. I'm a KISS type guy and systemd always sets off all kinds of bells and alarms for me. Sorry, just a crotchety old guy who's been running linux since fall 1991...

[caligula]

I've moved my other systems over to void linux which is easily far more straightforward with how everything runs, and it's wicked fast. But definitely missing some polish and completeness. Poor overloaded maintainers...

systemd seems to me to be an overengineered arbitrary artificial layer which is just more crap to have to figure out. I'm a KISS type guy and systemd always sets off all kinds of bells and alarms for me. Sorry, just a crotchety old guy who's been running linux since fall 1991...

Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Void Linux use runit which attempts to restart failed services in a random order in case they fail? I once tried to understand how it works and it seemed horribly primitive. Probably good enough for simple use cases, but it definitely won't scale for us all.

[computerquip]

Some people seem to have missed their intention to provide adaptations to other init systems such as runit and openrc. They're quite aware of the limitations of sysv.

Good on them. I'm so glad to see a group actually achieve results that they like instead of just bitching and moaning about limitations of the current situation. Truly represents the open-source community at its finest.