Devuan: Debian Without Systemd

[brad0]

Grown men acting like children. In less than a year this fork will be history.

Mindless sheep is worse.

[GreatEmerald]

The best thing about systemd is how entertaining it is to watch all this drama where actors are often very smart people behaving like children after 8 years of fluoridising.

Priceless

I know right?

[ryao]

Mindless sheep is worse.

Lets drop the insults. They are not productive. I think the best situation we can aim to achieve is co-existence between those that prefer small code bases for startng things (i.e. sysvinit) to those that prefer large frameworks (i.e. systemd) where no one insults anyone else. It is probably too much to ask that people actually understand how either works. Few understand sysvinit (despite the simplicity of its codebase!) and even fewer understand systemd.

[Guest]

Wow.
We've gotten to the point where we fork distros instead of uninstalling packages?

Try uninstalling and replacing C library ;-] (actually don't).

[nanonyme]

Lets drop the insults. They are not productive. I think the best situation we can aim to achieve is co-existence between those that prefer small code bases for startng things (i.e. sysvinit) to those that prefer large frameworks (i.e. systemd) where no one insults anyone else. It is probably too much to ask that people actually understand how either works. Few understand sysvinit (despite the simplicity of its codebase!) and even fewer understand systemd.

I don't think the beef is how many understand Right Now but rather whether its documentation is high enough quality that it can be understood by new developers with reasonable amount of effort. I'm under the impression sysvinit has the worst documentation out of the bunch (sysvinit vs Upstart vs systemd). I hope I'm wrong since otherwise people would be advocating an init system whose learning was mainly based on trial and error

[waxhead]

There is no spoon... or fork rather

I fail to understand why the Devuan people do not simply put their effort into Debian itself. As far as I understand nothing is stopping them from merging changes that allow people to run a different init system instead of systemd. So if this is all about choice - if people are not preventing them from continuing supporting sysv-init then why on earth should you fork?! To me this is a bit like forking Debian on the basis that gnome is in the repos. I stick with xfce4 and hare happy with that, but there is no need to fork one of the (if not the) largest distro's out there - I just don't install the packages that's all and be happy that someone is supporting the thing you actually use!

[prodigy_]

alternative kernels preventing you from using modern OS components

If by "modern OS components" you mean Systemd and Gnome 3, it's a very small price to pay.

[prodigy_]

From my perspective, the systemd camp is mostly comprised of an end users who are vulnerable to hype and less experienced developers while the sysvinit camp is mostly compromised of system administrators and veteran developers. Consequently, the systemd camp is bigger by head count, but that is not necessarily the case when considering technical expertise.

QFT.

This also means pro-systemd and anti-systemd people essentially speak different languages and will never understand each other.

[WizardGed]

You have certainly harassed me for my ideas, rather than agreeing to disagree or displaying any consideration that they might be valid points when considering alternative use cases. If you want to make a good case for systemd, stop harassing people who disagree and learn to agree to disagree. Failing to do that demonstrates my point that systemd proponents are harass those who decline to participate in the establishment of a systemd monoculture by wanting other things.

I would suggest you practice what you preach Ryao. he gave valid arguments and hiding behind the "it's my opinion and you have to respect it or you're a bad person" card is childish.

[Fenrin]

I still don't understand what's so bad about systemd compared to sysvinit, apart from its being "too monolithic". Isn't the Linux kernel very monolithic too?[...]

you might find arguments against it there:
I want the next Slackware init system to be ... (e.g. this post, or this)
http://boycottsystemd.org/

I wouldn't say SystemD is bad or evil. But there seem to be some valid arguments against it. Probably it is good to have several choices on Linux. Otherwise NSA, CIA would have to write or find backdoors only for one