Originally posted by GreatEmerald
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Miguel de Icaza Leaves Linux For Apple OS X
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Originally posted by arokh View PostNone for the "desktop", because there are tons of desktops and none are useable by default. Linus maintains the kernel and does a great job at that, nobody is complaining about the kernel. I don't see competing kernels and massive duplication of effort there.
Originally posted by arokh View PostBroken, desperate need for rewrite, dinosaur, who cares.
There is difference between truck and train, no? Fucking yes. Different transport ways call for different paradigms.
On modern hardware, the network transparent Xorg is inefficient, because no one has supermachine with 1000 thin graphical terminals at home anymore. These "features" are not used, but are required for graphical throughput, resulting in excessive complexity, loss of performance and degraded coding/debugging transparency.
Xorg is in no freaking way is going to be abadoned or broken.
The road map is either to finish Wayland and then implement Wayland over network or rewrite Xorg from scratch specifically to match needs of datacenters with multiple thin clients to "as needed" degree.
Originally posted by arokh View PostNobody is mixing Ubuntu with Linux. Yes it's their decision and they are a corporation with business needs and will surely maintain Mir in the future. In that case perhaps the Wayland devs should abandon their project and help make Mir a good solution.
They got criticized only because they have listed many Wayland shortcommings that are false statements because they actually do not know Wayland. That was cleared by them.
Which resulted in another criticism vector, they rewrite simply because they want full control over it even though they have not been hindered to change and upstream anything they change, which is always seen as stupid thing to do.
Are we clear now?
Originally posted by arokh View PostWhat's your argument here? You feel the year of Linux desktop was 2003 and that means I should crawl out of my hole? I don't get it. I started using Linux around 1997-1998 with Redhat 5.x and Slackware 3.x. The year of Linux desktop has never come, crawl out of your hole.
That was the year of Linux desktop for me, because I booted into it and never booted back into windows since then. Never.
Originally posted by arokh View PostMostly they are. Ever worked at a software company?
Originally posted by arokh View PostYes you do fail, because I have no idea where you are going with this.
Originally posted by arokh View PostHAHAHAHAHAHA. Is my response to that. Try that going from Ubuntu, then to Fedora, then to SUSE will ya? Or even between versions of the same distro. Anyways, you quoted me and started talking about something completely different again.
Originally posted by arokh View PostOriginally posted by brosis View PostOriginally posted by arokh View PostYou need someone rational at the top to tell the nerds what they should code, not the other way around. I always laugh when I see people arguing that the Linux desktop is better than Windows/Mac, and has reached maturity. We all know these people spend hours setting up their desktop, installing binary drivers, desktop extensions, custom launcher docks, etc. and when they are finally done it looks kinda like a Mac except it's just a polished turd.
I also were not talking about "something completely different". So suggestion - how about you shut up?
Originally posted by arokh View PostFunctioning binary package management? Spending less time downloading??? What planet do you live on? Seriously... Using Linux since 2003 didn't do you much good. Binary packages are not installable across different versions of the same distribution and certainly not between different distributions. Ever heard of Linux dependancy hell? We've been living in it since the start. Anyone running a modern Linux distribution have hundreds of meg's worth of updates weekly if not daily, even if the updates concern parts of the system that you will never even touch.
No, I haven't heard of Linux dependency hell, but I know about DLL hell and newer version WinSUCKS (WinSxS) which grows beyond 100GiB very rapidly due to each application being installed with own dynamic libraries in seperate containers.
Also, you once more point out you should shut the fuck up because amount of updates one gets depends solely on software choice and distribution policy - whether its rapidly updating or not; whether its bleeding edge or stable.
If you join microshaft developer channel, you winblows beta is updated no less frequent as for example, debian sid. But one difference again - one can PIN the packages and prevent any updates without breaking anything.
Originally posted by arokh View PostDon't confuse Linux (awesome kernel) with random open source hackers hobby projects. Yes it offers tons of desktop environments and configuration possibilities. Too bad all of them are crap! Microsoft and Apple have fulltime employees doing research on UI design and usability and it shows. Instead of imitating them, keeping the best stuff and improving on the not so good stuff, GNOME and KDE devs think they can do better. Wrong!
Originally posted by arokh View PostExactly, because their default environment works great and they can focus on using the computer for it's real purpose instead of wasting their time on broken desktop environments. Users and devs should be forced, only then would we get progress. Obviously that ain't gonna happen because most "Desktop" devs work in their spare time and work on what they feel like. And if they feel taskbar is not working, it's gone. If they feel like spatial window mode is great (remember that?) then that's what we get.
Originally posted by arokh View PostErrrr. You're a double-turd then, how about that? Great discussing with you.
I am a turd cleaner and you are wiped once again.
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Originally posted by Detructor View PostAbout C++: Well last time I checked you needed to fumble around with header files (I still don't understand what those are for),
Originally posted by Detructor View Postthere was not one IDE that has C++ + GUI builder the way C# has it.
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Originally posted by Detructor View PostAlso I read a few times that compilers tend to 'optimize' your code which results in unexpected behaviour.
Originally posted by Detructor View PostAaand last one: There seems to be no debugger that is as easy as VisualStudio's debugger (build-in in an IDE and easy to use)
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he fragmented the linux desktop.
He tried to create a copy of windows 95
he tried to emulate microsoft in every way. Including 'people are stupid'.
his ximian posse almost destroyed Suse.
And now, thankfully, he is gone.
Good riddance. Hopefully he just vanishes.
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Originally posted by Detructor View PostJava? Faster than C#? Nice joke man. You'd need some very special cases where Java beats C#. I did my benchmarks and tests. Also Java GUIs just look ugly. And yes there are multiple Java IDEs and the best I found was NetBeans, which is kinda good but slow when loading bigger projects (they may have fixed that in the meantime). Also Java is owned by Oracle...and we're all seeing what's happening to MySQL. Java won't be around for long.
Originally posted by Detructor View Postwell in that case, you didn't do a good job. I developed 4 in-house applications in C# that worked on Mono without even having Mono in mind for it. I'm also currently developing a rather big/complex program that'll be available for Linux (because I need it for myself, too), there may be driver related problems in the future but as of now I didn't encounter any problems.
Originally posted by Detructor View PostAbout C++: Well last time I checked you needed to fumble around with header files (I still don't understand what those are for), pointers and there was not one IDE that has C++ + GUI builder the way C# has it. Instead you needed to do manual binding and stuff you really shouldn't even think about. Also I read a few times that compilers tend to 'optimize' your code which results in unexpected behaviour. Aaand last one: There seems to be no debugger that is as easy as VisualStudio's debugger (build-in in an IDE and easy to use)
As far as a GUI builder goes take a look at Qt Creator, and as far as the optimization issue that is true for pretty much any language, and even moreso for a managed language like C# or Java, because part of the whole argument for JITing is that it can optimize for the architecture it's being run on at runtime and improve the optimization over the long term. In terms of debugging Clang gives nice compile time debugging and then Qt Creator hooks into Valgrind for it's debugging stuff, I haven't played enough yet with Visual studio to say whether one debugger is better than the other in that regard, however it is integrated.
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Originally posted by brosis View PostI havent and going from Ubuntu to Fedora to whatever will work FINE.
I also were not talking about "something completely different". So suggestion - how about you shut up?
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It's becoming clear to me I'm discussing with a child. Come back once you've grown up, moved out from your nerdcave and had some real world experience with computers will you?
The Linux desktop have always been and still is a trainwreck. Even the devs are realizing it and they are either abandoning ship or trying to fix things by creating more fragmentation as usual. Too bad UnitedLinux failed, they were on the right path until SCO went insane.
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Originally posted by arokh View PostThe Linux desktop have always been and still is a trainwreck. Even the devs are realizing it and they are either abandoning ship or trying to fix things by creating more fragmentation as usual. Too bad UnitedLinux failed, they were on the right path until SCO went insane.
Instead what you need is a company large enough to design an OE from end-to-end and re-use existing pieces where possible (Linux kernel, some common GNU tools, etc.). And, like Microsoft, Apple, and Google, this company has to depend on consumer sales to drive profits. In other words, make a turd and you get $0. (This is the opposite of the GNOME mentality... where they can force their "vision" on the product, no matter how batshit insane it is, because they don't have to answer to customers at all.)
Now unfortunately there aren't too many companies that have the resources to do this. It's kind of like trying to make a car company to go up against Ford and GM -- the latter have years and years of accumulated experience. But what we do know is that the current distros are kind of wallowing around in the same nerdiocrity year after year after year without really making any inroads in terms of marketshare, and what's baffling is that people in these efforts still can't figure out why.
So I completely reject the idea of a "Linux desktop", just as a "Linux mobile" would likewise be a failure. We need a desktop OE that has Linux at its core and that's about it. Whether it be Ubuntu or ChromeOS or Android or whatever, this focus on commonality and having a "community project" is just a waste of time because it doesn't reflect reality. Creating a good desktop OS requires a ton of focus and concerted effort and, yes, hierarchy.
JMO of course.
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Originally posted by arokh View PostWhat? It's irrelevant if he used mouse & keyboard on a touch interface? It's like trying to skateboard in high heels.
Windows 8 is designed for both touch screens and classic setup. They unified their platform, devs will be able to develop once and run "everywhere". Don't blame your ignorance on MS.
This unified platform nonsense is... well, nonsense. It's not working for MS, their phone OS is tanking even though they butchered Nokia for it (4% market share and dropping) and no one wants to use windows ache - its sales figures are abysmal.
For that matter - the "develop once, run everywhere" is bullshit. Windows ache, windows phony and windows Reeking Turd (RT for short) are not mutually compatible. Even in cases where they are, the developers will still have to adapt the interface for different types of devices and different input methods.
The reality of the situation is, that the same interface for desktops, laptops, tablets and phones is a moronic idea, they are different platforms and different things work for them. Trying to use the same interface for such drastically different platforms is idiocy, and MS is paying the price for their failure.
I'm not a Windows user myself, just had a quick look at Windows 8 but it does look promising.
I don't know where you get from that it's a disaster/failure, do a google search for windows 8 reviews, most of them are overly positive.
- windows ache sales figures are horrible. This has been all over the news. The sales are only a fraction of what windows 7 sales were when it had been released for the same amount of time. http://www.techieapps.com/windows-8-...ing-pc-makers/
- the sales figures were so horrible microsoft decided to try pulling a fast one: they claimed "oh hey, we didn't REALLY release it when we said we did (and started selling it with a huge, multi-billion dollar marketing campaign), the REAL release is now". They also tried shifting blame to the OEM's... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01..._8_blame_game/
- most sources that aren't paid MS shills are calling windows ache a piece of shit. Notably, the usability guru Jakob Nielsen has bashed it to all hell, and he's not a windows hater, he usually likes ms products. http://www.nngroup.com/articles/wind...ing-usability/
That enough or do you need more?
You got it backwards, Unity is a disaster agreed upon by everyone. Canonical wants to do the same thing as MS though, unify their desktop/tablet/phone experience etc. Problem is that the rest of the Linux distributions aren't going to follow, so more fragmentation is incoming.
Canonical is doing shitty things, yes - of that we can agree and that's not the issue at hand here. I hope they'll come to their senses at some point and drop all those marketing-speaking suit-zombies that keep steering them shitwards.
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