Linux Kernel Preparing New Guidelines For Using Inclusive Terminology

[coder]

Is this a fair comparison?

Not equivalent, but seemed relevant.

I'm sorry but I don't see the relevance.

Because it's a military game. It's one of those contexts where white power is prevalent and signalling behavior is happening.

The issue we are dealing with here is a bunch of technical terms that may be seen as offensive if you look for it there.

No, the tangent we're on is CoD banning the OK sign.

This is what I find quite worrying. If we start to filter our language and culture in general to play it safe with the SJW and argue that we are not really loosing anything anyway, it might be difficult to stop it if and when it goes too far.

So, let me ask you this: are you personally going to walk around and flash the OK sign at every opportunity and in pictures on your social media? Or, are you maybe going to use it a little less than before? And if so, why shouldn't CoD also drop it?

Unfortunately, things like this have a tendency to escalate from well intended ideas to dogmatic ideologies.

Last I checked, we still have a 1st Amendment, though its biggest threat seems to be the President. You are free to say anything you want, no matter how distasteful or vile.

As for CoD, it's a private property. They are free to do as they please, and you are free to voice your dissent by not playing it. You can even make your own game that awards people points for flashing the OK sign.

[kcrudup]

Which of the answers is yours? Haven't seen a reasonable answer to the first email.

Not sure what you mean, here?

[Almindor]

I was quoting someone complaining they didn't understand why this was a point of sensitivity. You don't have to understand, but the history is there if you want to try.

You implied that they lack empathy if they don't try. You basically shoehorned the whole non-US world into unempathic bastards category.

It's almost funny how enraged some people get over this stuff. It's not like they're trying to Kwanza-up the kernel and replace existing nomenclature with Black Power phrases and cultural references.

Cultural rape would be like banning your language & cultural practice and taking your children and putting them in religious boarding schools of a different religion. Like what happened in the US, Canada, Australia, China, and I'm sure the list goes on. No, this is not cultural rape.

Cultures are mutualy exclusive it's their definition. Pushing something of one culture to people of other cultures is always cultural rape and it happens all the time everywhere. It's basically how cultures work. This is a case of (minor but still) cultural rape.

None of these words are offensive to anyone outside of U.S. and they're not even offensive in U.S. Not really, since language is contextual. Now if there was a variable called nigger somewhere that'd be another story.

Are you telling me there are black people who when say adding a piece of code to the kernel would go "hell no, I ain't supporting this racist shit" because they'd see the word "slave" in the code?

Why does it upset you so much?

The change itself doesn't really not much, it's just a bloody waste of time and resources. The direction tho, that upsets me a lot. It's USA arrogance at its finest combined with 1984 in the works. Arrogant thoughtcrime.

[Duff~]

To think that 'blacklist' or 'slave' is an aggression to black people is already racist, they're trying to fix imaginary problems, if not, schooling their inner racist state of mind.
They would have nothing to contribute if it wasn't because everything nowadays is considered. RACIST.

[_ONH_]

Not sure what you mean, here?

You told you did answer the list. Haven't read all the answers, but the ones I read didn't convince me. Btw how do I answer the lkml list discussion?

[danmcgrew]

...Honestly, as a French, I do not understand Americans. In France, nobody thinks that "listes noires" (blacklists) are racist, even blackface is not an issue, it's even used as an anti-racist gimmick in "Les aventures de Rabbi Jacob", an anti-racist French movie (great comedy). I do believe that we are less racist in France than in the US (much less racist murders, and racist murderers are much more severely jugged in France) but we would have never considered as racist things that Americans seems to consider racist. I hope my country will be preserved from those new US-inspired "anti-racist" activists that, to me and lots of other French people, looks actually more racist that some of our far-right politicians. I am anti-racist myself but I just can not consider this kind of activist to be anti-racist in any way, to me, it is racist itself. I do not want to hurt US people but maybe they should reconsider their vision of racism and fight real racism, like murders of unfair trials, rather that terms like "slave" or "blacklist" and replace their obsession of race struggle with universalism.

Most of the rest of the civilised world thinks and feels as you do, @ALRBP.

If it is any comfort, a lot of 'Americans' don't understand 'Americans', with their sense of entitlement, of privilege, of superiority. The very fact that WE consider 'American' to be synonymous with 'US citizen', and no one else, is a prime example of our collective and parochial snobbery. Here's a BIG clue for all you "red, white, and blue 'Mericans'": every person who is an inhabitant of Canada, Mexico, and all of Central and South America are Americans. Period.

Is it even remotely possible that, perhaps, one major reason for this attitude of superiority, of "to the manor born", and almost nowhere else might just be that WWI and WWII, with all their attendant misery, death and destruction were not fought on U.S. soil?

[kcrudup]

You told you did answer the list.

Ah, gotcha. I sent it to everyone on the original E-mail Michael quoted, and CCed Linus, but didn't send to the LKML.

Btw how do I answer the lkml list discussion?

I'd imagine just doing what I've done too (cut and paste from the linked page, incl. the LKML list address) and "Reply-All" to that.

[blackiwid]

Most of the rest of the civilised world thinks and feels as you do, @ALRBP.

If it is any comfort, a lot of 'Americans' don't understand 'Americans', with their sense of entitlement, of privilege, of superiority. The very fact that WE consider 'American' to be synonymous with 'US citizen', and no one else, is a prime example of our collective and parochial snobbery. Here's a BIG clue for all you "red, white, and blue 'Mericans'": every person who is an inhabitant of Canada, Mexico, and all of Central and South America are Americans. Period.

Is it even remotely possible that, perhaps, one major reason for this attitude of superiority, of "to the manor born", and almost nowhere else might just be that WWI and WWII, with all their attendant misery, death and destruction were not fought on U.S. soil?

But even that is basically virtua signaling, and I have to admit I did that in the past, too. Or well it's probably more ignorance or not wisdom than virtua signaling, depends from person to person.

Because Even European call north and south America together often America, in reality it's Americas, so you could be either an Americans which nobody says or a North American, with this term you also describe the other groups, but there is only one "America" in form of a state: USA.

Nobody in Canada or Mexico get angry that people mean only US Americans when they say that (well not nobody but most) but some Europeans or maybe some radical people in the US get angry over it. Meanwhile US Americans feel insulted when germans speak from Amies

So just accept that language will always include banter and misunderstanding and find something else to get angry over.

[coder]

You implied that they lack empathy if they don't try. You basically shoehorned the whole non-US world into unempathic bastards category.

What I actually said was:

If you can't muster some empathy or sympathy, at least try a little patience and flexibility.

I understand that it's a lot to ask someone to empathize, which is why it's often enough just to be patient and flexible. I don't think empathy should be the default state, therefore I wouldn't quickly reach for the indictment of someone as an "unempathetic bastard".

Cultures are mutualy exclusive it's their definition.

Not mutually-exclusive, but zero-sum. Throughout history and the world, you see a lot of cultural-mixing, with different peoples absorbing different aspects of other cultures, while keeping certain aspects of their own.

Pushing something of one culture to people of other cultures is always cultural rape and it happens all the time everywhere.

Mixing of cultures happens. Rape is something that is forced. ...if that metaphor means anything at all.

It's basically how cultures work. This is a case of (minor but still) cultural rape.

At this point, I'm not convinced you're exactly an authority on culture, but go on.

None of these words are offensive to anyone outside of U.S.

I don't know that. What was the rationale given in the actual proposal?

Are you telling me there are black people who when say adding a piece of code to the kernel would go "hell no, I ain't supporting this racist shit" because they'd see the word "slave" in the code?

It's not just code, since that terminology can also find its way into config files and documentation, which a lot more people come into contact with than ever touch a line of kernel source.

And I'm not the one pushing for it, either. For the rationale, I refer you to the original patch, itself.

https://lkml.org/lkml/2020/7/4/229

The change itself doesn't really not much,

Yeah, that's basically my point.

it's just a bloody waste of time and resources.

Because it doesn't benefit you?

The direction tho, that upsets me a lot. It's USA arrogance at its finest combined with 1984 in the works. Arrogant thoughtcrime.

What's the thoughtcrime, here? In the USA, you're free to not only think whatever you want, you can even say it!

I think what really bothers people about this is the idea that they can't simply have all the benefits of a massive communal project without having to make any accommodations. That's some serious next-level entitlement.

[qarium]

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